An open thread, where at your weekend leisure, you can discuss anything you like.
Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas
Larvatus Prodeo was an Australian group blog which discussed politics, sociology, culture, life, religion and science from a left of centre perspective. more»
Future Dystopian America Needs You:
He says so
yeh, but …
The Qur’an burning story reflects many aspects of the current situation in the world, including human interconnectedness now realized more acutely by technology. At the same time disconnectedness is emphasized. The preacher in Florida speaks without regard to the consequences of his words. Three unnamed people are killed in Afghanistan as part of the need for order in response to the protests that arose there. The participants in these events, much like those who frame continuing wars,violence and the vainglorious guest for domination, sometimes with the apparent express endorsement of god, consistently do not acknowledge or accept a sense of responsibility.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/us/09secrets.html?_r=2
“WASHINGTON — A federal appeals court on Wednesday ruled that former prisoners of the C.I.A. could not sue over their alleged torture in overseas prisons because such a lawsuit might expose secret government information….
Judge Raymond C. Fisher described the case, which reversed an earlier decision, as presenting “a painful conflict between human rights and national security.” But, he said, the majority had “reluctantly” concluded that the lawsuit represented “a rare case” in which the government’s need to protect state secrets trumped the plaintiffs’ need to have a day in court.”
HD #4,
I think on this I’m an absolutist. Some things can’t be negotiated and “national security” has been a puerile excuse offered by conservatives for a decade too long.
No more Gitmo, no more Dr Haneefs and Hicks’, no more phoney reports unverified because of “secrecy”, used as cooked up pretexts for blatant wars of aggression.
You need to take it with a large dose of salt (the salty bore water left behind), but like in the movie Gasland, you start to see these trickles of unaccountability: Hunter CSG.
If only burning Tony Abbott’s costings document could cause the same fanatical reaction amongst Liberal supporters.
Oh, wait … Muslims in fact believe that the Koran contains truth.
Sorry … carry on.
Why didn’t some Mufti come out and announce that if the preacher burns one Qur’an he will retaliate by burning two bibles?
Anyone else think George Megalogenis deserves a white feather for his performance on Lateline last night?
Or was i just in a fowl mood?
Nice one HD!
Presumably, the friends and fellow nationals of the folks alleging torture already believe that these folks did suffer torture at the hands of agents and employees of the US government. The outcome of an American court case will have no influence over those opinions.
Therefore, the only folks being protected from this truth are the taxpayers and citizens of the United States.
Shorter Judge Raymond C. Fisher: it is vital for the interests of democracy that the voters and taxpayers of that democracy have uninformed opinions when they vote and when they pay their taxes.
The US appears to be in terminal decline.
Ute Man #1 scary
Now ya’ll listenin my fellow Americans. God bless America. I’m givin ya’all a free gun ‘cause I’m the “Millionaire Patriot” en I wont every law abiding citizen in America – God bless us – to secure the comfort of skill at arms for the protection of ourselves, our families, and our communities. Ride ‘Em Cowboy, Yippee-yi-ay-ay, yippee-yi-yo-oh.
I think Noel believes Tony Abbott will be the next PM. I recall when he wrote just such a piece for Rudd. I have a great aversion to making calls on Indigenous people from within a white discourse, but enough. This is getting silly now.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/right-crucial-to-aboriginal-reforms/story-e6frg6zo-1225917681598
Ute Man @ 1,
That’s almost as scary as reading the Australian.
I was going to post the site where I found the ad for the Millionaire Patriot, but I thought he was as funny as he was scary. The other site (the Alex Jones Prison Planet one) used to be just nutball one world government conspiracy stuff, but it’s taken a decidedly darker turn by repeating a lot of the whispered Tea Party stuff. When you read it, you get the feeling the crazy end of the American political spectrum is about 1 minute to midnight from openly declaring a global banking conspiracy headed by (well, you can guess the racial group) – they’ve started running apologetics for the actions of Germany in the 1930s for example.
Add to that Katz’ remark (the US in terminal decline) from Hannah’s dads link and you can’t help but feel a little scared.
The US lost it a long time ago. Here is just one exchange from an interview with Gore Vidal in the LA Weekly NOVEMBER 14 – 20, 2003
http://www.lermanet.com/communion/gorevidal.htm
It didn’t take long for George Bush’s Sancho Panza, John Howard, to follow with his Anti-Terrorism laws wherein one can be convicted for “recklessly possessing a thing” whatever that may be, or expressing political dissent.
George Orwell, were are you?
Born on September 11th to Huggy and partner a beautiful 5.2 kg baby girl called Pandora.
Mother and baby are amazing.
Huggy
yay for Pandy Bunny
Duncan@9, Big 10-4 on the white feather for George Megalogenis last night on Lateline! There’s me thinking he had some ginger, hunh, what a cop-out. Scared of losing yer job George? Who got at you eh? Tingle was pretty pale too, but Mega is mini now afa I’m concerned. Fie!
Congrats Huggybunny, but 5.2kg OUCH.
That’s a big baby!
Breaking news:
Pakistan has been beaten by 19 runs in their match against England at Suffolk in two weeks time.
A funny congruence of posts (#14 and #15) above – Gore Vidal has been on the Alex Jones show many times and readily appeared in one of his documentaries on a certain topic. Make of this what you will.
Congratulations Huggybunny! Naturally, I expect you’ll go out and find a huggy bunny for her!
Agreed @ 9 and 18 both seemed uncomfortably restrained, in Tingle’s case one wonders who or what by.
joe2 @8, I think Muslims revere the bible too, so they can’t burn anything in retaliation. People sometimes forget that the two religions share all the teachings of the old testament and love of Jesus.
Well done Huggybunny’s family!
I have the most awful flu ever to stalk the earth. I am on my third day of fever, and my back aches something cruel from lying down constantly for three days. Walking to the drug store to buy nurofen is probably going to kill me. It’s 35 degrees here today as well. Even though it’s Autumn. I think I’m going to die.
Indeed he does wmmbb, however that’s not the whole story in the conflict between free speech and the sensitive feelings of certain religious believers.
The question could be put this way: If a mad mullah in Afghanistan threatened to burn a pile of bibles and show that on TV, would it have a similar reaction from X’tians (or anybody else for that matter)?
Given that various despotic regimes (of a particular religious bent) want the UN to adopt some kind of International anti blasphemy law, notwithstanding that the Florida preacher is a complete and utter pratt, I’m now on the side of enough is enough and free speech/expression edges out any mayhem that may be caused.
Thin edge of the wedge. Otherwise people of any religious belief will be empowered to dictate more and more what everybody else can or can’t do. I really think a line needs to be drawn.
Went to sleep half way through Mega + Tingle, Dunc.
I was drinking all night, so i wasn’t sure if i was being fair to the man, Dave.
To my bleary eyes he seemed to be doing a pretty good impression of a gutless lapdog.
I normally have a lot of time for him.
Glad it wasn’t just me @ 18 & 23.
George “mini” Megalogenis.
TalkTurkey, i reckon you’ve coined a new nickname for Big M!
Congratulations Huggy and family. Get some sleep while you can.
Congrats to Pandora and parents.
Nice name.
Congratulations, Huggybunny.
And now, on a completely different topic:
What happened to his/her head?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3132904/The-headless-skeleton-of-a-whale-found-in-the-Thames-goes-on-display.html
Yes, congrats to Huggy, Partner Bunny and Pandora Bunny.
Congratulations Huggy and the Lady Bunny!
Congrats Huggy and partner, and welcome Pandora, don’t miss the hope. what they said up thread about sleep. immunisations for both the Hbomb, 4yo, and Sherbet, 18mth, today, geez kids can be tough.
Congrats Huggy!
PK:
I am not sure that free speech can ever edge out any mayhem that may be caused. The media’s role in this instance as always is another story. Then there is a the potential global reach of the internet. Truth and kindness might not be the polar opposites we sometimes imagine to be, or that some religious believers insist they are.
This has probably been seen.
However, an award winning add with no dialogue that will bring a tear to your eye. About wearing a seatbelt.
Don’t know how they did it, but it reminds one of the art of silent movie making which unfortunately ended far too soon.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/22/embrace-life-video-seat-b_n_471799.html
joe2 @8, sg @24 beat me to it:
The first problem for an Afghan mullah who wanted to burn bibles is that Muslims consider Jesus to be the most important in the line of prophets prior to Mohammad. Burning a book of his teachings would be seen by many as un-islamic, or at least deeply discomforting.
The second problem would be getting hold of the bibles in the first place, given that distributing them in Afghanistan can get you in a lot of trouble.
Yes, I know those two things are somewhat contradictory, but we live in a crazy world!
Congrats Huggy & partner, you baby girl shares a b’day woth my baby girl who turned 24 today.
Gillard Ministry announced. Regional Australia is the new Western Sydney:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-gillard-ministry-20100911-155qc.html
sg says:
“joe2 @8, I think Muslims revere the bible too, so they can’t burn anything in retaliation. People sometimes forget that the two religions share all the teachings of the old testament and love of Jesus. ”
You are assuming all religious people are rational, when the observable evidence clearly suggests otherwise. A quick squiz with google shows up examples of bible burnings throughout the Islamic world. Apparently bible and crucifix destruction is official Saudi Government policy.
I think a religious ideology (Islam, Christianity etc) should have as much legal protection as a political ideology (Marxism, libertarianism etc). That is too say, none at all- let a thousand flowers of free speech bloom!
Poor old Mega. Get real, guys — who here would be prepared to go on national television and trash his/her employer?
*Crickets*
More happily, congrats to Huggybunny and, more to the point (5.2 kilos?? Ow ow ow), Huggybunny’s partner.
wmmbb @36 re
Compared to the ongoing mayhem caused by the war policies of the US, the Florida pastor’s albeit intended stupid act is pretty small beer.
It can be argued as an extension on the line drawn on free speech, eg yelling “fire” in a cinema, but extrapolated for geographic location and time frame. I’d argue against that extension by utilitarian theory, the greater good is served better by allowing free expression in this case rather than the “common good” of religious sensitivities (which would undoubtedly include religious fanatics using it as an excuse to murder co-religionists of the pastor around the world–not that they ever need an excuse).
The other monotheisms have learnt by and large, (or forced by secularism) to put up with “heretics”, “blasphemers”and atheists. About time the Islamic world followed suit.
I’m not saying I encourage the moron in Florida, but a hard won principle should not be diluted simply because it’s a moron who exercises the rights which emanate from that principle. Bad cases do not make good law.
If the Pastor is to be “banned” from his expression, then to be consistent “Satanic Verses” by Salman Rushdie should also be banned. It’s a very slippery slope if any particular nation agrees that religious sensitivity in other nations trumps the freedom of expression of their own citizens.
I note some people in the US made death threats to PZ Myers for “desecrating” a wafer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZ_Myers
So the phenomena is not restricted to Muslims, but appears to be another byproduct (for some, not all) of desert sky god delusions.
Has anyone seen “The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer” – a movie made about 40 years ago. It was produced by David Frost and written by, among others, Peter Cook, Graham Chapman and John Cleese. I saw it when it first came out and again about a year ago on TV.
Whenever I see Bill Shorten I think of that film.
Congratulations to Julia Gillard, and also to all her supporters here. I have no useful opinion about the party politics of the whole thing, but it seems pretty clear to me on the face of it that Gillard is just plain ol’ better PM material than Abbott. Good luck to her, and may wisdom and fortune both stand her in good stead.
Katz: “The US appears to be in terminal decline.”
Yes, quite true: the US is in the process of an openly terminal decline, from hyperpower, all the way back down to plain old superpower. Sniffles.
Personally, speaking as a neo-isolationist, I’d be quite happy to see the US decline even one level further, all the way down to “major power.” But that probably won’t happen any time soon.
Reality just phoned, Katz, it wants to invite you to lunch. Evidently hasn’t seen you for a dog’s age, and would like to catch up. Man, I’d love to overhear that conversation.
* * *
Regarding the whole Koran Kerfuffle (or should we say the Qu’ran Qu’rfuffle?) I think Ann Althouse has some interesting things to say over at althouse.blogspot (you have to scroll down a bit, I think there’s at least two posts about it). In a spazz-out like this there’s almost never “definitive,” there’s just “interesting” and “thoughtful” and “thought-provoking” and so forth. Myself, I find book-burning abhorrent in all cases without exception, for human reasons not religious ones*, but I also believe there’s a lot more than that to say about it.
Til later…
* — of course at bottom the “human” is the “religious” and vice versa, if we want to be strict about it. But, Eins nach dem Andern, as the Captain said to Woyzeck…
Kim and everyone; Just like to wish all the good decent Moislems amongst us on this happy festival …. Eid Mubarak.
…. to wish all the good decent Jews amost us …. a Happy Jewish New Year (sorry folks, haven’t any idea how to say that in Hebrew).
And to say to to all the good decent Americans among us, regardless of religion or belief or persuasion ….we’re thinking of you on this sad anniversary.
wmmbb says:
“I am not sure that free speech can ever edge out any mayhem that may be caused.”
You create what economists call a perverse incentive with that line of thinking. In other words, all group A has to do to suppress free speech B is create mayhem. As an example, your reasoning would result in a ban on the annual gay pride march in Jerusalem in order to avoid the mayhem created by Christian, Jewish and Muslim counter-demonstrators.
I’m glad I’m not living in your joyless paradigm
@44 I bought a copy a few months back, based on my memories from long ago – amazingly prescient film
I remember seeing the film years ago as a Labor fundraiser. Does this define ironic?
Yes, Peta
Saw it when it came out. One of Peter Cook’s best. Opinion polling gone crazy…. slimy politician.
Here is an article that looks like it was saved for when Rabbott won but circumstances have pretty much forced its release now:
http://www.coxmedia.com.au/articles/121/broadband_plan_is_smoke_and_mirrors_by_peter_j._cox.html
Congratulations huggy,missus huggy and huggy bubby.A welcome new edition to our universe!!!
I’m glad to read that you are so sanguine Japerz.
Congratulations. You are the proud citizen of a power that is capable of bashing up any gooks, ragheads, or sand niggers you may mention.
Too bad that this power necessitates the destruction of the principles of law and justice that your great nation was founded upon.
PK and WD40
If free speech was seen as a means to end, rather than an end in itself, then context is relevant. To be literal, mayhem is violence. The idea of burning the Qur’an is consistent in a medieval world view with the notion that “Islam is of the devil”. Heretics were burnt on similar reasoning. Traitors executed. In 1415, for example,John Wycliffe was exhumed,then his body and his books (presumably including his translations of the Bible)were burnt.
Can violence be justified by provocation, as in this instance? Should people engage in violent speech, characterized by dehumanization? For those who hold to nonviolent paradigm the answer in both question is no.
The purpose of free speech is to allow truth to be expressed, not to occasion violence or damage. Thus, I note, “we have defamation laws”. More seriously, I would suggest that the actions of Pastor Jones and his followers, especially given the publicity attached to it, does threaten violence and the countenance of violence within the Islamic World. We should I believe condemn such behavior in principle, as we do scapegoating of minorities within our own society.
Sincere thanks to all who congratulated us on our new arrival.
My thanks to the Mater Public for a sensationally good experience there, ongoing actually.
After over 10 hours labour the (5.16kg!) baby was starting to fade so a Caesarian section was basically mandatory (We did not want to go this way and i must say the Mater people did all they could to forestall it) once we agreed, we were both in the operating room within 10 minutes in the first hours of 9/11 and the bub was born 10 minutes later.
Thanks Mater.
Huggy
Huggy, wow!
xx sc
Huggy, are you in Brisbane?
A cousin of mine is a Matron at one of the Maters here in Brissie. Maybe she was one of the staff that dealt with Partner Bunny…
Anyway, it’s good to hear that all are well.
Terangeree,
Yep we live in Brisbane. The Mater we went to is near the Gabba. Excellent ante natal stuff as well.
I was exiled from Victoria in the late ’90′s, almost acclimatised. Congratulate your cousin for working for an amazing organisation.
Some years ago during the Howard regime, certain nuns from the Mater were involved with health services for refugees (“boat people”) the regime threatened to make it illegal to assist refugees. The nuns to their eternal credit let it be known that they would put their hands up to be arrested, the moment the law was proclaimed. Howard dropped it. Dumbarse Abbot has revived it I understand.
Huggy
Wmmbb
You seem to lack a moral compass. Those who choose to be violent need to take ownership of their own actions.
You also ignore the fact that the Koran, just like the Christian and Jewish holy books, is littered with sanctions to kill people. I don’t see anything wrong with burning, shredding or urinating on a book that contains literally dozens of invitations to kill and oppress various types of people, gays for example.
I further note this amusing comment on your blog: “The radical ideas of Christianity seem too difficult for fundamentalist Christians to grasp.”
But here’s what the big Jay Cee actually said:
“But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.” (Luke 22:36)
“I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” (Gospel of Matthew 10:34)
LOL.
How can this possibly be justified?: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/elite-private-schools-rake-in-profits-20100911-1561o.html
Public monies appearing in private school balance sheets as Profit”. They didnt even spend it. Its just “profit”. Straight from taxpayers pockets.
Did it make them more affordable? No. they raised their fees.
Embezzlers. These organizations are simply embezzlers.
Its time to shut down this scam.
Katz: “bashing up any gooks…”
Funny how you left out the Serbians. Oh, and the Nazis and (putatively at least) the Soviets too.
Oh wait, but they’re all white, so they don’t fit into your tidy little pre-fab narrative.
How inconvenient that things are different in life from what you get down at the nice Marxist bookstore, where they have the cute Che posters and it all makes sense. He really was quite a dreamboat, wasn’t he?
Like I said, reality would like to meet you for lunch. Or maybe you’re more of a late afternoon tapas kind of chappie. Well, the two of you can work it out, you don’t need to involve me, besides I’m going to be busy blowing up cute bunny rabbits. For fun. And racism.
And what pre-fab narratve would that be?
You appear to be determined to miss the point. The US beat the Nazis and the Japanese and presided over the collapse of the Soviet Union without compromising in any fundamental way its founding principles.
These challenges were much greater than the challenge of fundamentalist Islam. Yet this last challenge has enabled/driven/become the pretext for swingeing destruction of many of those foundational principles.
Strike out whichever option doesn’t apply.
If you are happy with that state of affairs, then I am sorry for you.
Huggy, congratulations to you and partner on the little bunny! Enjoy the period of marvelling at her perfection alone for these first few days. Challenges will come soon enough, but they’re all worth it.
wmmbb @ 55 re
Burning a book which is the property of the burnee is not per se violent speech nor a violent act. It doesn’t for example dehumanise (with respect to scientists) any more than fundamentalists burning books on evolution.
It’s purely symbolic of the burnee’s disagreement with the contents of said books. The provocation indeed does not justify violence but note how the difference in levels of provocation exist between the scientist and the thesist (especially notable given the material for the former is demonstrably provable and the latter an unprovable fairy tale.)
This is so ironic. You now have to define what is truth. Both Islam and Christianity say they have the truth (which when aligned with nationalism becomes a potent mix).
Since both beliefs can’t be true simultaneously then 3 alternatives spring to mind: one belief is true and members can have free expression to burn the other’s books OR both beliefs must shut up to avoid violence OR both are allowed free expression to burn each others books (and we condemn any violence resulting).
The ultimate question has to be, why must there be an exception for religion not to be criticised?
Would that include trying unlawful enemy combatants before military tribunals and hanging them as the US did in 1942?
Or the internment of American citizens of Japanese descent by executive order and without benefit of habeas corpus, again in 1942?
And the seizure of houses for the quartering of their troops in Germany and Japan during and after WW2?
Perhaps though you hold the view that the writ of habeas corpus and the third and sixth amendments to their constitution are not fundamental to their founding principles.
Or perhaps you just don’t know much about what happened in WW2.
It’s burner (that or who does the burning) and not burnee (that which is burned) in this case I think, Peter.
Otherwise I agree with all you said and especially your last sentence.
This did not involve the rights of US citizens.
This one did involve the rights of US citizens. But as the US was fundamentally a racist society in 1942, whose foundational principles had not yet been extended to minority groups, this action did not betray the founding principles of the US. You may recall that President Jackson did much the same thing to the Cherokee and members of other Indian nations in the 1830s.
Your point being? The US Constitution never applied to either Germany or Japan.
You’ll have to do better than that GregM.
Just to remind readers about the core issue here, the judge I quoted upthread opined that US citizens had no right to know about the actions of employees and agents of their own government, even if, or perhaps especially if, these employees and agents broke laws enacted by their own legislature. In other words, according to this judge, the government has the right to lie to its citizens and to break its own laws. And a judge has a responsibility to perpetuate the cover up of those breaches of law.
Ahh. Now I understand. The foundational principles of the US apply only to citizens of the US (except, maybe, those of Japanese descent) and they can do what they please to the rest of us.
You little George W Bushite, you. Next you’ll be off with a paean of praise for Abu Ghraib on the basis that the US’s foundational principles have not yet been extended to its victims.
GregM @ 67, thanks it’s the burner.
GregM – since the foundational principles of the US encompassed the right to own and to enslave the children of slaves on the same legal basis as livestock ownership, it’s clear that those principles were intended to apply only to some people and not others, and to non-citizens hardly at all. The Judge Dredd decision of the antebellum Supreme Court established that ownership of a slave transferred even when the slave concerned had been given informal freedom and allowed to reside in a non-slave state.
The Fourteenth Amendment was not a foundational principle of the US, but even it did not apply to foreigners – even those under direct US rule. US behaviour in the Philippines, for instance, was as atrocious as that of other imperial powers with the subjects of their possessions and arguably worse than some.
Thanks for trying Hal9000. However, don’t expect the egregious GregM to understand the point you are making.
The citizens that Judge Raymond C. Fisher had in mind when he denied all citizens the right to know about the actions of their own governments belong to categories of US citizenship that always enjoyed the full benefits of protection under the US Constitution. These individuals are adult, male, white taxpayers.
In constitutional terms, a member of the judiciary is acting as an accessory after the fact in the illegal acts of employees and agents of the executive branch of government.
Thus we see an example not of checks and balances between the different branches of government, but rather a conspiracy against the rights of citizens.
Hal9000, I am not the one standing up for the foundational principles of the United States and the US’s virtue in strict adherence to them in WW2 and in the Cold War.
You’ll have to address your comments to Katz.
As a small point, I think that with a little research you’ll find that Judge Dredd is a comic book character. The case you are referring to is Dredd Scott v Sanford.
Also you’ll find that the fourteenth amendment, created as part of America’s “new birth of freedom” did apply to American citizens of Japanese descent in 1942.
And I think you’ll find that the 6th amendment applies to persons within the territorial jurisdiction of the US and not just citizens, as Katz ignorantly thinks. At the time of the founding of the US black people were not considered persons, a deficiency remedied by a bitter civil war and the 14th amendment, so from then on they (and people of Japanese descent, whatever Katz’s strange views) were entitled to its protection.
Oh really?
What year was the 14th Amendment passed?
What year was the US Army desegregated?
And on a precise legal issue, the Fourteen Amendment related only to State government actions, not to actions taken by the Federal government.
Here is the relevant section:
Will GregM perceive the significance of the fact that the Amendment remains silent on measures taken by the Federal Government? I doubt it, but one can always live in hope.
wmmbb@55,
.
So that’s where Mr Abbott found the inspiration for his “dead, buried, and cremated” epitaph for (the name) WorkChoices…
Beyond parody Katz.
You quote the first section of the 14th amendment then completely ignore the first sentence of it and, of course, the rest of the United States Constitution, including the first ten amendments, which underpin that first sentence.
Pure comedy gold.
GregM bails.
Speaking of burning books…
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/us/10books.html
After being elected president in 1912, Woodrow Wilson introduced racial segregation in federal government hiring and employment policies. (Indeed, federal government offices in Washington DC remained segregated until the 1950s). The NAACP tried and failed to have these decisions overturned on the basis of, among other things, the Fourteenth Amendment. The federal courts decided that the Fourteenth Amendment did not apply to these federal cases.
However, at the same time the NAACP did have a measure of success in appealing to the Fourteenth Amendment in cases relating to State cases.
Lefty @ 61
Private school profits etc..
This is a pretty lazy article that looks like it has been fed to Natalie Craig as a Sunday Age beat up.
Most if not all not-for-profit organisations in receipt of Government support – be they the Australian Ballet, Scotch College, or any of a million small community organisations – need to make a ‘profit’.
Otherwise they are incurring losses which presents the risk of their voluntary Board being exposed for trading while insolvent etc.. etc.. etc…
Yes, lets look at the funding structure for schools, (are they utilising their assets efficiently etc) but lets not rely on badly written, poorly researched diatribes.
Excellent, Katz and Greg discussing law. And Japez raving incoherently across a no. of threads about being old and white and racism and stuff.
So, I found out this today:
Im writing this chapter on the Mabo ruling and how it really only aided and abetted the discourses of whiteness, which of course do not exist, no sirree, no privileges there don’t you worry about that JPZ. Then I find out that Eddie Mabo was actually called Eddie Sambo at birth but changed his name due to an inheritance. But Im thinking can you IMAGINE how hard it would have been for the High Court Justices, old whites you know, to carry out their legal ablutions for whiteness with magisterial poker faces, claiming a victory for anti racist liberal discourses while ceding JACK, in a court case called SAMBO vs the State of Queensland (no. 2)? Oh come on. Oh I wish he had kept it..
Not at all, Katz.
I intend to spend the rest of this weekend exposing your ludicrious ignorance of United States judicial history regarding issues of national security just as I have exposed your complete ignorance about British rule in Ireland and South Korean trade policy towards Japan and on so many other topics upon which you pontificate without having the slightest bit of knowledge.
A fun weekend for me.
I will be back shortly after I have done a bit of research, something you seem never to do.
Oh-oh!
Things have gone all a-quibble!
Dearie me, GregM. Still at this?
While you are doing your research, find out how many Toyotas South Korea imported from Japan on a yearly basis between 1950 and 1980.
Now this is an interesting, if longish, piece in The New York Times on well organised leaks by Murdoch employees in Britain.
I wonder if his minions would ever consider bugging ministerial meetings here or Green leaders phones?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/magazine/05hacking-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine&pagewanted=all
GregM Dredd Scott. Just so. It’s what I thought I’d written. Back to sleep.
charlie, check the buffers! ‘Trading while insolvent’ is a red herring, non-issue.
We need to reform funding now: clearly any school that raises their fees after a HUGE profit on public funds needs their funding lowered: in favour of poorer public, indie and catholic schools.
I also think they should have to purpose-apply for funds. Why are they even able to hoard surpluses like that? Who else gets to do that with public funds?
Note that none of the schools contested the figures (…so much for ‘poorly researched’).
Gee, hasn’t it been wet lately.
This is the country that has given us a decision cited as Random House v Abbott and Costello. http://australianpolitics.com/executive/howard/pre-2002/golddiggers.shtml
So no doubt despite their irredeemable stain of whiteness which, like you, I take as irrefutable proof of their racism, the members of the High Court would have taken Mr Mabo’s birth name in their stride.
Why are the US military so concerned with the effect that burning the Koran could have on anti-American attitudes when we have reports such as this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers
The soldier who hatched the plan of the “kill team” boasted of the things he got away with while serving in Iraq.
Greg, I only mentionated old whites cause of Japerz. Whiteness is an aspiration not a skin colour. Whiteness is not a race either Japes (your words on the other thread) But can I use that ‘stain of whiteness’ thing? I like it. No footnotes though. It’s not like I’m Casey in real life. I will just thank you in the front like a real person.
@90 Silkworm Yes isn’t it atrocious?
I really think, considering the history of the UK and US imperial agendas in the Middle East, that the offer to build an Islamic community centre to ‘improve east west relations’ in New York is a very generous offer. The US has been asking for Sept 11 for more than seventy years.
Richard Neville opined that the US is the world’s most dangerous rogue state and currently they’re doing nothing to alter that.
Not that we’ve done much to be proud of, either.
For those of you who are interested I’ve done a post on my blog on the wartime Independents Arthur Coles and Alex Wilson and their relationship with the Menzies/Fadden/Curtin Governments.
http://beingahistoryheadandotherthings.blogspot.com/2010/09/independents-in-australian-federal.html#comments
LeftyE @ 87 – perhaps they’re just saving up money for capital works? If they keep spending all the money they receive each year how are they meant to fund building upgrades? Some long term planning sounds like a good idea.
Dropped my wife up at Ravenswood School for Girls on Sydney’s North Shore for HSC marking yesterday. Looks like they have 4-5 story block under construction funded by the BER.
LeftyE is correct. Let them fund their building upgrades through school fees like just about any equivalent schools in any other country in the OECD.
Syburi,
“The US has been asking for Sept 11…”? Seriously?
I read somewhere that there is to be a review of schools funding during this term. It is a disgrace that a situation like that reported is tolerated. I hope the Review proceeds as planned and that the Greens push for a more just approach.
@20 Diogenes – I understand the new betting is that Pakistan will win by 3 runs. They are still taking bets on all figures between 1 run and 19 runs, so plenty of time to get on the gravy train.
“I really think, considering the history of the UK and US imperial agendas in the Middle East, that the offer to build an Islamic community centre to ‘improve east west relations’ in New York is a very generous offer.”
If you think the Middle East was some sort of Shangri La before the Brits and Americans turned up then your very, much mistaken. As one example, Paul Bairoch estimates about 25 million black Africans were captured for the Islamic Arab slave trade. Millions more people from elsewhere were enslaved, including Europeans.
Interestingly, it was privileged British whiteness that bought an end to the discursive narrative of the Islamic Arab slave trade discourse.
WD 40
When you start quoting the Bible, you have an unfair advantage.
PK:
I think the thing about burning the Quar’an for a Muslim is the proposition that “Islam is of the devil” which is deeply offensive. Bear in mind it comes from one religious believer to another cultural tradition. The book burning is a public and symbolic act. Maybe as Atheists – hence “no moral compass” – this is not an issue.
You are right to pick up on the issue of truth, but I think that Socrates would have no problem with the concept. In a practical sense that is the purpose of democratic discourse in its authentic realization. I thought it would be contentious to suggest a means-ends argument for freedom of speech within the framework of non-violence, just to see where that might lead.
@WD40 – non sequitur, sir!
The undoubted centuries-old history of Muslim contributors to the African slave trade (that just about every nation on earth at the time engaged in, let’s be fully honest) are hardly relevant to the last century of Middle Eastern relations with the UK and US since the petrochemical riches of the Middle East became known.
I don’t support Syburi’s contention that this history means that the US was asking for Sept 11 – what appallingly heartless nonsense. But Syburi does have a point that there was plenty of interference from the West in Middle Eastern states to prevent them going through the instability that attends grassroots democratic movements, by giving them funding and weapons that would allow them to stifle and repress their homegrown democratic activists.
For Westerners to now blame Muslims for not having managed to overthrow greedy and corrupt despotic regimes that were being actively propped up by our own governments purely because said despotic regimes promised to ensure the flow of oil, and to imply that Islamic nations are “naturally” undemocratic when our own governments did absolutely everything they could up until 9 years ago to stifle every democratic movement that had the guts to rear its head? Shameless, flagrant hypocrisy.
It is, indeed, very generous for a moderate Islamic community to want to build a centre dedicated to improving ‘east west relations’ in New York under the circumstances. Brave, too.
Now my own non sequitur: very interesting link summarising recent research into learning – Forget What You Know About Good Study Habits
Basically just about everything we think we know about the best way to study for exams and knowledge acquisition in general is wrong.
Tigtog a strange thing. Whenever you post, your name shows on the little side feed, but your comment doesn’t show for a while in the post. Like now, its not showing. Weird.
Book burning is wrong, no matter what the book is. I know I’ll be Godwined, but remember Goebbels? One may not like other peoples’ ideas, but the way to counter udeas you disagree with is to argue against them, not burn the books they’re in.
@Casey, we did this last week! It’s because I usually reply from the admin interface rather than directly on the blog, which I do in order to save time.
This time came out onto the blog to reply harrumph harrumph for you impatient types.
“@Casey, we did this last week!”
Did we? Maybe I’m still waiting for it to show?
Okay, then as you were. But look at it this way. You have an army of impatient FANS that can’t wait to see what you have to say!
Well, I did this conversation last week! It probably wasn’t with you, now that I do some recollecting.
Terry Jones is weak as… what a pussy!
Meanwhile, in England …
http://www.news.com.au/world/search-for-englands-own-loch-ness-monster/story-e6frfkz9-1225919552417
Agreed Paul @103, expressed rather well by Sean Connery in a movie “If only you goose-stepping morons would read books instead of burning them.” We all seem to agree with that.
However, the argument is between free expression (burning one’s own private property) and religious sensitivities objecting to said book burning that would result in some threats of violence and/or violence.
(Subtitle 1: is one person’s “holiness” allowed to be cast as another’s “evil” by a symbolic act?)
[Subtitle 2: Are atheists allowed to indulge in a little shadenfreude watching theists of different persuasions attempt to pillory each other
]
Tigtog says:
“But Syburi does have a point that there was plenty of interference from the West in Middle Eastern states to prevent them going through the instability that attends grassroots democratic movements … ”
I’d much prefer the West got the hell out of the Middle East, but there is practically no evidence to support your contention that the ME would now be on the path to democracy but for western interference.
Need I remind you that the ME has only one genuine Islamic democracy, Iraq, and that only exists because of western interference. Needless, to say, it will collapse when the Yanks leave if not before.
“to imply that Islamic nations are “naturally” undemocratic … ” No one is saying that. Not even neocons believe that, as you’re presumably aware (hence the pointless Iraq democracy experiment). But there is certainly nothing in their historical tradition to suggest democracy as a possibility any more so than Imperial China prior to western involvement.
Irrespective, I think democracy will eventually come to the Middle East but it will occur in its own good time, well after the oil has run out and long after anyone gives a rats.
Peter Kemp wrote:
No, for the same reason it is wrong to make jokes about the handicapped.
I would encourage Syburi to post his enlightening views re: the US “deserving” September 11 under his real name. Such genius should not go unrecognised.
@WD40, you have tried to simply bypass the argument that the most constant input into instability in the Middle East over the last century has been Western self-interest.
Would the nascent grassroots democratic movement in the Middle East have succeeded in giving their fellow citizens fully democratic governments without Western policies that supported despots who guaranteed petrochemical supplies? Who can say? It’s very well documented however that the West didn’t give those movements that chance.
Self-interested oligarchies ought not blame indigenous societies for failing to miraculously provide themselves with the resources to guarantee their own citizens’ self-autonomy, in situations where they’ve actively worked against that self-autonomy, don’t you think?
FR @ 75.
He actually said that! I have no idea was inspires Tony, although the Council of Trent is a possibility.
tigtog@64
Thanks for the sentiments. i agree with all my heart.
Huggy
Congrats, Huggy to you and family
Did I pass you in your eponymous sedan on Fairfield Road early yesterday pm? If not, you’ll have to sue for breach of copyright!
Bible or Koran – which burns best?
“..practically no evidence to support your contention that the ME would now be on the path to democracy but for western interference.”
How ’bout this WD40?
“the 1953 Iranian coup d’état..was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
“We’ll all be rooned!” sez a US Hanrahan.
An extract:
@119 Katz
If we don’t allow people to buy houses they can’t afford, the hallucinated economy grinds to a halt.
This guy is no Hanrahan, he’s right on the money.
On a personal level, this makes my life easier though. Im just about to put my house on the market.
Thanks re Iran, Duncan. I was thinking more about the Arab ME countries, but yes non-Arab Iran is still considered part of the ME.
You appear to be enjoying a VERY long weekend GregM.
Or can it be that you have discovered that the Fourteenth Amendment is not applicable to Federal Matters?
For your edification, in case your fun-filled researches have failed to find it, here is a link to the landmark case Korematsu v United States. The issue was the constitutionality of Executive Order No. 9066, mandating the internment of persons of Japanese descent.
Sensibly, Korematsu’s lawyers attempted to have EO9066 declared unconstitutional on the basis of its alleged breach of the Fifth amendment. Equally sensibly, these same lawyers declined to invoke the Fourteenth Amendment because, knowing something about Constitutional Law, they understood that the Fourteenth Amendment did not apply to Federal jurisdictions.
Unfortunately for Korematsu, the Court found 6-3 against him. However, the dissent of Justice Frank Murphy does stand the test of time, prefiguring as it does the sensibilities of a later age:
(My emphasis.)
Feel free to make further comments, GregM. I need more opportunity to decide whether the prattish GregM is more pitiable than the priggish GregM.
PS. What about those Toyota figures?
Katz, that’s because, as Paul Keating said to John Hewson, I want to do you slowly. You can read the rest of what he said to Hewson in Hansard.
You’ll have to wait until next weekend to see how you are done.
I’m probably way behind the times in raising this, but thought I’d note the upcoming Europe-wide general strike on 29 September.
This is, apparently, the first time ever that European trade unions have mobilised on this scale.
Good News.
I’ll get $100 off my phone bill for the phone being cut off. And apparrently, if I contact the Telecommunications Ombudsman I can get compensation for my phone line being cut off because it was cut off by a third party. Nice Telstra, Poor Bunnings.
I regard the time as long overdue for a political campaign against the OO (aka The Australian). This arrogant swaggering component of the Murdochracy is a living, breathing insult to good public policy. Far from articulating critiques of public policy, it is now openly subversive both of evidence-based analysis and established usages of cultural life in this country such as the right to privacy.
Their publications have also infected the ABC, whose lazy and witless journalists take the latest talking points from the OO as if it were the News and frame discussion accordingly. News Ltd is not merely a media organisation.
It’s a virus that is causing a chronic illness in public culture. A little while back, it declared that The Greens were hypocrites who were bad for this country and should be destroyed at the ballot box. Those of us who support good public policy should respond that the OO are hypocrites who should be destroyed in the marketplace.
Not paying for their tatty sub-intellectual rag (and its equally ugly sister The Telegraph) is not going to do the job. No self-respecting person I know buys this stuff and in any event, the cover price barely pays for delivery, let alone production. We must keep in mind that however it may appear, readers are not their customers. Readers are their audience, i.e. their product, which they market to the customers that keep them afloat — advertisers. If we wish to hurt News Ltd, we must convince advertisers that that sections of the audience that they pay good money to access online and in print are being prejudiced by their support of News Ltd publications — that such support damages their standing.
We have, after all, laws in this country restraining people from giving financial support to or profiting from criminal activity. It is illegal to coerce members of
parliament, judges, juries and public officials to secure favourable treatment. It’s very clear that this is what the OO and its related set of replicating viruses do. Advertisers in these publications are in practice behaving just like someone funding the contamination of a watercourse, or facilitating the spread of a serious
disease or the blackmail of public officials.
We should make this plain to companies like Vodaphone and the ANZ Bank, whose ads sit alongside screeching editorials defending the outing of GrogsGamut author Greg Jericho, and beside Terry McCrann insisting that Marius Kloppers is bent on destroying the company he runs by advocating a carbon price.
It is fair to say that we are few in number, and so we must direct our energies so as to maximise the impact. We don’t yet have the resources to work effectively against all supporters of News Ltd. Therefore, I would urge those who are repelled by the activities of News Ltd to target these two companies, ANZ and Vodaphone with letters explaining why you mean to implicate them as responsible for the decline in the quality of public debate in this country and as thus commercially unsupportable.
I’d be very interested if those who make progress on this let me know via my Twitter ID (fran_b__ ) where I will retweet useful actions and progress. I am starting a new hashtag there to coordinate searches for this campaign, the string for which is #pwnNewsLtd so please include this in any Twitter feed.
Best …
Fran @126:
I think that’s the kind of campaign that has the potential to work.
After all, it was through lobbying of potential financiers, wasn’t it, that campaigners had real success in stopping Gunns’ proposal for the Tasmanian pulp mill?
Any such campaign might also point out, for good measure, that advertisers are getting dudded on the fees they pay to newspapers such as the Australian because those fees are inflated due to dodgy circulation figures. Crikey.com.au has been doing a bit of work exposing this, although most of what I’ve seen has concentrated on Fairfax so it’s possible that News Ltd has a clean nose in that regard at least.
Thanks Rewi
If you do anything or find out anything useful, let me know on Twitter …
Have just spent the day adding pictures to most of the posts on my blog. It looks much better and I’m feeling really pleased with myself.