Today on ABC local radio here Stephen Conroy came on Madonna King’s program to answer callers’ questions. Madonna said it was one of the most popular segments ever. Before it was over Malcolm Turnbull’s office made contact. As a result he will be on next week to spread confusion.
I wasn’t in a position to take notes, so I’m trying to remember some of what he said 14 hours later.
First up, he scotched the idea that fibre was a short term fix. Someone had been told the lie that we’ll have to do it all over again as soon as the roll-out was finished. He said the fibre should last 30-50 years.
People were concerned whether they would have to pay whether they wanted the thing or not. Couldn’t they just keep their present phone line?
The answer is that although the copper network is going to be decommissioned, people would simply plug their phone into a new box and carry on as before. What they paid would not change.
An important point is that they are looking at a battery in the box, so that the service will still be available if the power goes off.
On sewernet, he said it was not clear how much it was going to cost consumers. Certainly it would not be free. He said that information would soon be available (within the next few weeks) as to what the charges for the NBN would be. He spoke of what they were preparing as a “business case”, would you believe.
I did get the impression that they were going to build the NBN in Brisbane irrespective of sewernet. This article gives the impression that Campbell Newman hopes his little project will replace the NBN.
It raises the question as to whether the NBN infrastructure service would be contestable, and whether sewernet would be restricted to wholesale. Could Telstra, for example, offer a retail service using sewernet?
When the announcement was made that Optus was talking to NBN there was an indication in the Fin Review that Telstra had a definite expectation that this would happen. In other words, if they are going to get out of infrastructure in favour of the NBN they don’t want competitors moving into the vacated space.
At the recent shareholder meetings Telstra was very clear that the NBN agreement was not a done deal until the legislation, which I gather was to amend the Trade Practices Act, was passed. It would have been helpful if this issue had been raised directly with Conroy.
Someone complained about the mobile phone coverage and asked why the Government was not fixing that up before rolling out the NBN. Conroy said the Government had no role in mobile coverage. It’s what you get if you leave it up to private enterprise, he said.
He did say the they had released more spectrum than anywhere else in the world.
Conroy said that there were maps on “his site” showing FTTH in red, wireless coverage in grey and the rest would be satellite. For the life of me I can’t find them, but I did find this at ZDNet.
That’s about all I can remember. If you want to continue with scatological humour, please be my guest on the other thread.
Nothing on the mess they’ve made of the ABC, Brian?
Hyperbole, I know. Not even a question on a staff member on the ABC board, as worth a mention, one supposes.
Who is preparing the business case Brian? the Feds, i3 or Brisbane City Council?
i3 is clearly setting itself up as a wholesale provider. See my comment @35 on the previous thread. So any isp could use sewernet to provide retail service.
NBN Co’s website isn’t exactly conroy’s, but here is the coverage map
http://www.nbnco.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/main/site-base/main-areas/our-services/coverage-maps
Well, It sill looks like we may need a bit more clarification on sewernet, to see if the whole thing will float. Basically we still need to know about the technical issues, the model of access to the network, compatability with NBN projects and costs/benifit over the NBN project. I still don’t want to dismiss it as outrightly bad, because I don’t think it’s an attempt to undermine Labor or the NBN as so much try to get world class facilities into Brisbane, you know what we pay Campbell to do, but I guess we shall see.
If by ‘his site’, Senator controy means the NBN co website Then yes, the full coverage maps are there (The same as the ones on the ZDNet link above).
Thanks, lomlate, that’s what we need.
I and C, I daresay you are right about i3 as a wholesale provider. I don’t think Telstra will be happy with that and they have some pull.
I forgot to mention that Conroy said the Telstra deal would save a considerable amount of money, and as I said it isn’t finally stitched up yet.
Paul, no mention of the ABC or any awareness that a mess has been made.
My take on sewernet was that Campbell can actually see the benefits of Brisbane catching up with places like Singapore and getting ahead of the other Australian capitals. So he wants Brisbane to get a high speed now, not after the regional areas have been connected up. It is not clear whether he is talking about just using the the sewer mains to get close to houses or actually running the optics all the way up the sewer to the house.
Campbell may also se the sewernet proposal as a way to speed up the NBN project. * years waiting for NBN is far too long and may become a point of attack for the next opposition leader.
Apart from regulations governing where the towers can go. In fairness that’s a state/local matter.
Still, good thing that food isn’t left to the free market to create, package, transform, distribute and sell.
So many things happening and so many concepts across multiple threads Brian, I’m so confused: is it Conroy’s Cunning Pr0n Plan that Brisbane will act as the filter to extract all the filth from the intertubes?
Jacques @ 7 – they also control use of the spectrum. use it or lose it provisions might change the situation in some areas – communities could setup local coverage themselves tied into landlines for example.
Brian – my understanding is the termination boxes have a space for a battery already but it’s currently up to the homeowner to buy – probably a few hundred dollars. There’s also some issues around alarm systems with some of the cheaper ones potentially not working properly with the new system.
A large proportion of the electromagnetic spectrum is correctly viewed as an exhaustible public resource and therefore subject to government alienation and regulation. One alternative is to throw it open to whoever has the largest transmitters to drown out their opposition. Another alternative is to allow the courts to decide usage rights on a case-by-case basis. Neither of these alternatives is workable.
Moreover, in this dry land of ours, much food production is enabled by access to water. Water is also an exhaustible public resource subject to government alienation and regulation.
We live in an exhaustible world inconceivable to the nostalgic lockean mind.
Katz – unfortunalely telcos have been known to buy up spectrum and then not use it, perhaps this is partly due to the way spectrum is sold. But it results in areas having no coverage and competitors being unable to supply to those areas because there is no spectrum available. Perhaps an example of bad regulation?
Excellent point! If private enterprise can grow and sell food, obviously it is the best choice to build sound mobile coverage, and the NBN! (Sitting here at my desk, unable to make or receive mobile calls and I live smack in the middle of a medium-sized country town).
Jacques, if you ever need a dentist, I can recommend you some very competent carpenters I know. Don’t worry, they are free market carpenters, so you can be sure they will do a good job on your teeth.
I agree Chris. That is an example of bad regulation.
Way back in the 1950s Frank Packer saw his dollop of bandwidth for what it was — “a licence to print money”.
Governments began selling bandwidth in the 1920s. Ever since, the moguls and their corporations have been feasting on the fruits of crony capitalism. Their stooges in government have enjoyed some very tasty scraps.
From some conversations I was in with Brisbane City Council people in 2006, I know that what is now being called “Sewernet” was in the works – so to speak – back then. So Campbell Newman’s plans for high-speed broadband for Brisbane were in train well before the Rudd Government and the NBN. In fact, they can be seen as a direct response to the impasse on the issue during the Howard years. Newman would have no political interests in saying that in public, but it is the case, and there would be many people in BCC who would know that.
Paul O’Sullivan, Optus Chief Executive
Committee for Economic Development Australia
Leveraging the National Broadband Network to deliver Australia 3.0
1 December 2009
The transcript is here
For the record, I am an Optus employee.
I wonder if this sewernet has been given a trial in industrial areas ? Some of the stuff these guys put down the sewers would quickly destroy most stuff one would use for sheathing; the glass fibre itself is easily destroyed by a variety of chemicals.
If the fibre is in a conduit somewhere it is easy to find and remediate a break or defect. Down the sewer is a different story.
There are lots of one – way (check) valves and gate and d iversion valves down there too, strikes me that it is not at all simple.
Huggy
Huggy, that’s a good point you make about industrial areas. Surely Newman would have to be aware of this.
Uncle Buck @15,
He’s just talking his book. Doesn’t make him wrong, but if it were in his interests to say the opposite, he’d say the opposite.
At the risk of treading on the toes of his esteemed colleague, I wonder if Conroy had anything to say about an Australian equivalent of this?
Huggy,
Discharges to sewers these days are subject to all sorts of regulations and controls. I cannot think of any allowed discharges that would affect the sorts of cables likely to be used. In industrial areas, industries are visited by trade waste officers trained to figure out the likely discharges by that industry and then ensure they have the appropriate treatment facilities on site before they are allowed to get a sewer connection. Similarly, at the sewage treatment plants they are often able to do detective work if something comes in, and pretty quickly finger the offender. It is pretty much the same risk wise as that of someone digging up the cable in the street. The biggest problem is likely to be erosion of the cables by ‘grit’.
Also check and stop valves in the sewer mains are usually only associated with sewer rising mains – where the fibre will not go. Check valves used in the sewer system itself are generally only a temporary measure used when the system is surcharging. Not sure you would be putting extra stuff in a part of the system subject to surcharge in any case….they need all the diameter they can get at that point. The other thing is that check valves are usually temporary because, despite the hand-on-heart assurances by suppliers, they are always getting fouled up with things on strings and rubber goods. None of which yr average sewer worker likes much.
Marks, yes things are far better thane they were. A long time ago I saw a plating shop pouring gallons and gallons of cyanide solution laced with all sorts of heavy metals down the next door gully trap. The avoided their own effluent attachment because the authority was on to them.
I guess I have only one question left.
How do they get the cable out of the sewer and into my living room?
Huggy
Andrew E – Conroy is too busy attacking companies like google because they dare to publicly oppose his filter…. Australia does have some technology related to mobiles that would really help during disasters. Not sure it has any corporate backing though.
Huggybunny – it’s possible they just plan to run it from the main sewer line in your street separate from the house sewerage pipes. The quality and maintenance of those is probably pretty poor in comparison. Newer houses all have vent traps from the house sewer lines which go up through the roof so they could take the cable out of those.
Or they could take it from the nearest maintenance hole (they have these about every 80 or so metres in older areas) and then use a footpath alignment for the last stretch. Almost all sewer connections have a property inspection point as well. I would not think it a good idea to take it from internal pipes as they are often in poor shape and always pretty small diameter relative to the sewer main. As well as that, should there be a blockage and the local tap dancer were to use his cutter…oh, well, back to the nintendo.
In fact, a lot of the service might be laid in streets with only major diameter sewers being used to carry the cable. Or a combination.
Power and Water Corporation in the NT laid a lot of fibre in its power tunnels in Darwin for the local Austar operation in the nineties. It also looked at using the sewers at the same time iirc as this had been done overseas then, but no takers I presume. Not really a new idea. Presumably the NBN people could do this as well in any city with a sewer system. It would certainly cheapen things in some of the larger regional cities and towns.
Hmm, maybe the NBN will come in under budget. That would confound some commentators.
Hm again.
A typical cost for excavation in urban streets is about $50/m. (not including the cost of individual connection sodding around). So, using the sewers, or overhead poles to string the wires could save most of that, which would make it a (multi) billion dollar question. (And just think of the difficulties in digging up streets in some of the inner suburbs with narrow footpaths and narrow streets).
If it proved to be that sort of cost saving, Newman would deserve a gong.
Chris/Marks.
II doubt if they bwould bring the cable out under my bathroom basin, so I guess ity will have to be broght to some accessible point on the main sewer.
Could use the water mains for that also.
What’s the betting thet the NBN is lookiing at these ideas also ?
I would be.
Newman is just tryin on a spoiler he would not know if a brass band was up him unless some-one gave him the drum.
Huggy
Huggybunny – well perhaps the NBN have looked at these ideas, though since they have access to the Telstra conduits perhaps they don’t need to use the sewer lines. They’re certainly looking beyond just fibre now – looks like cable will be used instead at least for the interim where it already exists as that can deliver 50-100Mbit/s.
btw sewernet is not the only NBN competitor – TransACT who already have fibre + cable networks will end up being an NBN competitor if they don’t get bought out. And as the article mentions its a difficult position for the NBN to be in as their competitors will be able to concentrate on just the really profitable areas which means the NBN has less money to cross subsidise the rollout and maintenance in the regional areas (the same problem Telstra has been having with their copper service).
TransACT aren’t the only fibre providers either – there’s pockets of them around in greenfield developments and its likely they’ll be able to undercut the NBN if the NBN overall requires a commercial return to the government investment.
FWIW the senate estimates hearings on the NBN are quite informative (if you can handle wading through all the irrelevant point scoring on both sides).
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S13299.pdf