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48 responses to “Climate clippings 47”

  1. Roger Jones

    Ta for the Hansen link, Brian. If the forthcoming Hansen paper is the same as the stuff I’ve been working on with complex system responses to climate change and variability I’ll be happy for him and sad for me :-(

    Better get the skates on. Thanks for the other links, to my posts, too. One is on Manne’s takedown of The Australian in Quarterly Essay. There was a spike of hits just after midnight when I posted it – who could that be now?

  2. John D

    This Everest webcam sends a new picture of Everest every 5 mins. The pictures are nice but the point I am making is that may be a look at a future where people can live a quality life without living in scenic locations or lots of travel.
    I can imagine having a window/wall sized screen that functions as a window to places of interest via a fixed camera.

  3. Jess

    Thought this one might be of interest (via Ars): a UK-based company plans to build a large carbon-neutral data centre in Iceland, run from geothermal and hydroelectric energy and using Iceland’s climate to reduce cooling costs.

  4. John D

    Climate Spectator had this to say about what could be the death knell ofCopperlink:

    Hopes of building one of Australia’s largest renewable energy hubs in north Queensland appear to have been dashed after the Swiss-based global mining giant Xstrata signed a deal instead with AGL Energy to build a gas-fired power station in Mt Isa.
    Xstrata had been mulling three strategies to ensure future energy supply for its Mt Isa mining operations: the extension of the current sole supplier, the gas-fired Mica power station (an idea it dumped a while ago); go for another gas-fired station; or participate in the CopperString project that would link Mt Isa with the grid at Townsville via a 1000km transmission line, and unlock a series of renewable energy projects, including wind, solar, biomass and geothermal found in between.
    Xstrata decided on the “safe” option and went for more gas, and signed a deal on Thursday with AGL and pipeline group APA to build a 242MW gas-fired power station at a cost of $500 million, and a 17-year supply contract.

    I have been a skeptic about the merit of building a powerline from Mt Isa to Townsville but what do others think?

  5. Fran Barlow

    Apparently, there has been a sharp increase in Europeans believing that anthropogenic climate change is a serious issue with most rating it as more serious than the global financial crisis.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/oct/07/europeans-climate-change-poll

  6. savvy

    Is the science really settled?

  7. jumpy

    Your a brave woman/man savvy.
    And in answer to your question, IMHO, no.

  8. John D

    New Scientist reports that:

    TANTALISING evidence suggests coral can be trained to withstand rising sea temperatures.

    Mauricio Rodriguez-Lanetty at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette found that Acropora millepora coral, which typically lives at 21 to 22 °C, experienced significant bleaching when held at 31 °C for eight days. But the coral could survive without bleaching if first held at 28 °C for 10 days.

    Some researchers think that coral might adapt to hotter water by switching its algae or symbiotic bacteria to heat tolerant types – but that would take more than 10 days. Rodriguez-Lanetty used genetic sequencing to show no such changes occurred (Proceedings of the Royal Society B, DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2011.1780).

    However, it’s unclear whether the heat tolerance is permanent. “Corals still face a gloomy future unless we stop global warming,” says Rodriguez-Lanetty.

  9. John D

    Savvy: Science is never settled. A new results and new ideas may lead to new conclusions. I don’t think climate science is settled in the sense that we are sure exactly what will happen if CO2 reaches a particular level. But I do think that it is settled in the sense that the probability of serious climate change taking place unless CO2 levels are controlled is far to high to be ignored.
    Climate Progress reported that some deniers have started using the neutrino travelling faster than light reports to support climate denial:

    Writing in Murdoch’s Wall Street Journal, Koch-fueled disinformer Robert Bryce has published two of the most laughable arguments against climate science ever seen in “Five Truths About Climate Change.” One of them has quickly become the focus of online laughs and a tweet-fest with the hashtag #WSJscience:
    The science is not settled, not by a long shot. Last month, scientists at CERN, the prestigious high-energy physics lab in Switzerland, reported that neutrinos might—repeat, might—travel faster than the speed of light. If serious scientists can question Einstein’s theory of relativity, then there must be room for debate about the workings and complexities of the Earth’s atmosphere.

    The mind boggles – there is a complete misunderstanding of what science is about.

  10. Fran Barlow

    Again, the the science is settled claim is (typically in concert with the scepticism is the heart of science trope) an attempt to win by resort to an equivocation fallacy.

    Saying that something is settled science does not entail claiming that new insights are impossible or that the field holds no further interest for research. It simply meant that knowledge of a particular area of inquiry is sufficiently well attested to use as a starting point for further inquiry (and in the case of climate change for example) policy responses. Once one grasps this point, one sees that scepticism is not mere formalistic naysaying and certainly not a nihilistic rejection of the impossibility of insight, or a blurring of the line between palpable nonsense and sound research. It’s merely a well-founded intellectual caution about what may be claimed about the interrelationships between various measurable phenomena and a search for fuller understanding.

    No society in human history (and no subset of it meeting the same benchmark) that has sought a rational basis for its responses to problems has ever demanded 100% certainty prior to action. We make judgements about what we would need to be confident about before acting, and take the risk of error and loss as an unliquidated or intangible overhead as the cost of prospective benefit.

    One may argue about where the lines may be drawn over “sufficient certainty” but one can’t reasonably argue that no such line can exist, as is implicit in the claims of those who keep asserting that the science is not settled or the debate is not over.

    To argue against action by persistently citing this claim is to argue for a different risk trade — in this case, one based on no science at all, and claims that have near zero credibility. It’s a pitch for arbitrary policy, for policy based on whimsy and angst. That is what a more robust definition of “denier” in this context means.

  11. Fran Barlow

    oops: {No society in human history that has sought a rational basis (and no subset of it meeting the same benchmark) } …

    better …

  12. David Irving (no relation)

    savvy @ 7, I’ve got better things to do with my time than watch an excerpt from The Blot Report. He’s a deeply dishonest man, as was brought out in his recent court case, and he’s been misrepresenting climate scientists for years.

  13. tigtog

    One thing that strikes me about that video is that in all their sner-sner superiority posturing about how corals should actually thrive in warmer temperatures they somehow seemed to totally ignore the other maritime aspect of increased atmospheric carbon emissions: that they make the oceans more acidic. A temperature rise on its own might well be good for coral growth, but the increased acidity surely is not, and I’m pretty sure that actual reports about our disappearing coral reefs make a point of mentioning the acidity problem. That journalists can’t be bothered to make sure that they include the acidity problem in their summaries and soundbites (which are supposedly for the purpose of informing/educating the public) is hardly the fault of the scientists who write the comprehensive reports.

  14. BilB

    This pathetic recurring “is the science settled” argument from the likes of Savvy follows the same dipstick line of reasoning that would say “do humans eat food”? Yes. “did you have food today?” No. “so humans don’t eat food!”.

    That is the depth of it.

    Please. Take it somewhere else.

  15. savvy

    @Bilb
    “This pathetic recurring “is the science settled” argument…”

    I take it you watched the clip?
    Are you saying that the three scientists are pathetic?

    What do you dispute in their statements?

  16. David McRae

    one convicted racist and liar, 3 never published a climate paper fake experts – demolished by one comedian

  17. adrian

    Another climate thread hijacked by another dullard.
    Said dullard posts a couple of lines of the latest talking points probably sourced from the US and faithfully regurgitated by Dolt or some other highly regarded climate scientist in Australia.

    Then people of good faith and intentions write detailed responses addressing specific issues, which of course is never enough for the dullard who couldn’t care less about facts, evidence or anything other than his own second hand talking points.

    Rinse, cycle, repeat ad nauseum.

  18. Fran Barlow

    Thanks Dave … Mitchell puts the calculus very well.

  19. savvy

    @David
    “3 never published a climate paper fake experts..”

    They are not real experts?

    Professor Peter Ridd has published many papers including papers on the health of the Great Barrier Reef.

    Making stuff up aren’t you.

  20. Ootz

    “The science is definitely not settled.” Dick Warburton, Inaugural chairman of Manufacturing Australia, this morning on RN Breakfast. No wonder manufacturing in this nation is in such a state, given such gross ignorance on science displayed by its chair. Some ‘leaders’ rather play political games than show true leadership for the sake of their stated cause!

  21. David Irving (no relation)

    Dick Warburton was also whining about a lack of workplace flexibility, Ootz, so I guess we know what he’s after: individual workplace agreements and government handouts.

  22. adrian

    Warburton was also spruiking his wares on AM, while claiming to be impartial on matters of climate. We then had journalist interviewing journalist and were told that there were other groups opposing the carbon ‘tax’ as well.

    Good to see the ABC providing him with multiple platforms to air his views.

  23. Jess

    savvy @ 23: Peter Ridd might be a professor with experience in coral reefs, but the burden of scientific proof lies in presenting good evidence to back up your arguments.

    So far nothing that I’ve seen him say has stood up to scrutiny from other peers in his field – Ove Hoegh-Guldberg being a good example of someone who has refuted all of Ridd’s misleading arguments about reef bleaching and ‘corals like it hot’, not with opinion but with evidence from his own research and that of others. There’s a good rebuttal of a lot of Ridd’s talking points at ClimateShifts here by Jon Brodie, who heads up the Catchment to Reef Research Group at JCU.

    And I have to say that the performance of all three professors in the Bolt Report was pretty p*ss poor. This quote from Ridd is a case in point:

    When you look at the models in detail, you look at the size of the uncertainties, then in my view they have no predictive value whatsoever.

    It might fly past Bolt but if Peter Ridd thinks that we base our assessment of the effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere entirely on climate models then he knows even less about climate science and fluid mechanics then the average physics undergrad in our lab. I don’t think he’s genuinely that dumb, but I suspect that he’s trying to make a rhetorical point which makes for good media copy.

    Unfortunately for Ridd, if he wants to be taken seriously as a scientist, then he has to engage with the science as it actually stands, not the strawman that he seems to be proposing in your linked video.

  24. David McRae

    Ootz @24 “No wonder manufacturing in this nation is in such a state, given such gross ignorance on science displayed by its chair.” I think you be spot on

    I’ve just listened to Ray Anderson interview http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/08/26/3302990.htm an entrepreneur we could ill afford to lose (we did 2 months ago). What a comparison – a can do entrepreneur who changes to fit the emerging evidence, confronting reality – the other a reality and science denier petrified of change.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Anderson_%28entrepreneur%29

  25. Ootz

    Brian, according to the the interview, he is now supporting Abbott’s Direct Action. Not only has he no idea on science, but it appears he can’t add up either, or is Direct Action appeasing the right kind of rent-seekers?
    I mean what is this guy on? I suppose about $ 5m a year for sprouting Broccoli on Radio National Breakfast and polishing door knobs at Westfield Retail Trust.

  26. Wozza

    @6 – “there has been a sharp increase in Europeans believing that anthropogenic climate change is a serious issue with most rating it as more serious than the global financial crisis.”

    And in actual Australian news, there has been a sharp fall in Australians believing that climate change is a serious issue. Climate change was ranked in a survey plumb bottom out of 10 issues for seriousness, 9 points down on July 2010.

    http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/10/11/1226163/501640-111011-newspoll.pdf

    The Australian progressive left, in their own version of the cultural cringe, will however in this as in other areas prefer to regard the European view as important, not the Australian one, I guess. Mind you, in fairness to the Europeans in this instance, the quoted survey comes from the Director-General of Climate Action in the European Commission, who might be felt to have had the teeniest amount of vested interest – like, protecting his job – in the result. Leading questions, anyone?

  27. adrian

    Given the amount of disinformation, spin and outright lying going on in Australia by those opposed to any action, that is hardly surprising.
    What is surprising is that people like ‘Lord’ Monckton are taken seriously in Australia and given national platforms to air their views, whereas in the UK and Europe they are treated as jokes and largely ignored.

    Another reason is that in Europe and the UK, action on climate change is a bi-partisan issue, a fact that goes a long way towards removing the unnecessary conflict from the issue.

    And not that News Ltd have the ‘teeniest amount of vested interest’. Oh no, they continue to be the objective conveyers of factual information.

  28. Jess

    Some stunning images in this video on the BBC looking at the vanishing glaciers in the Himalaya. David Breashears was retracing the steps of Mallory et al and retaking photographs from the same points that they did 80 years earlier. It’s astonishing to see how much ice has disappeared.

  29. BilB

    No scope for denialism there, Jess. It is not a matter of someone saying that ice is lost. It is in fact…really lost…..gone. And we know that it will not be back in a few years after some climate fluctuation, as glaciers take hundreds and thousands of years to build their volume. Of course this could be a local anomaly. Yes that is what it must be,…..but then I have seen the same scenery in New Zealand new Mount Cook. We need the confirmation of a real scientist. An email will be sent to Lord Monkton’s office for a definitive opinion.

  30. BilB

    In the “heaven help us” department

    http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/soi2.shtml

    , we have got to hope that this does not mean a full and more ferocious repeat of last years weather.

  31. Ootz

    BilB, it maybe just a little too early to place the coming wet season into the “heaven help us” category. Certainly current data and models are suggesting there is a scope for a moderate to strong La Nina.

    From memory the present public offering re Wet Season from BoM is that they expect an early onset and two mayor events (cyclone, floods). However, at this stage they don’t expect anything like last year. Suggest WeatherZone for an in depth discussion.

    I did warn last year on LP in December on the coming of a ‘Moster Wet’ by posting a relevant Courier Mail article. And monster it was, I don’t want to go through anything like Yasi again.

    On an interesting side note, from my own experience and various anecdotal sources, Yasi seems to have left a lot of anxiety in Cairns and Tablelands even though it caused very little damage here. There is a danger in calling monsters, in that areas not affected will either get complacent or suffer from psychological trauma from the rush of adrenalin brought on by the frantic preparations.

    Brian, I am not particularly interested in bagging Warburton. What I am on about, as I mentioned in the Minchin thread, is to establish a public record of the various mercenary ideologues and to prove to future generations that not everyone swallowed the crap dished up by these. Even Crikey now called Dick’s effords :

    ” … possibly Coalition-coordinated, public relations effort from dubious front groups like “Manufacturing Australia” and the Australian Coal Association to influence opinion (two years ago Manufacturing Australia chief Dick Warburton was a backer of a carbon tax but now appears to have changed his tune).

  32. wilful

    I’m actually a bit over all the wet weather. We moved to Gippsland in part to move to a wetter climate, but we got 1400 mm last year, and that’s more than enough.

  33. Ootz
  34. Roger Jones

    Wilful,

    IOD looks like being positive, La Nina not so strong, so it might get wetter further north but not too wet perhaps. If it follows the previous few years the wet will mainly miss Victoria because of the +IOD. It’s a negative IOD that combines with La Nina to give the SE a monster wet.

  35. jumpy

    Just a few bones to chew on.
    Australia has a lot of potential here. Whats the hold up?
    http://social.tidaltoday.com/industry-insight/worlds-best-tidal-energy-markets-it’s-not-all-about-tides

    What’s Australia s position in this area? We are a mineral nation, are we not?
    http://www.solardaily.com/reports/Critical_Minerals_Ignite_Geopolitical_Storm_999.html

    And a little dig on politics. Is the bloke on the left related to Fran? :)

  36. quokka

    @jumpy

    Go to Figure 1.10 (page 70) of the UK CCC’s renewable energy review and look at the estimated Levelized Cost of Electricity for various technologies, including tidal, and you will understand the reason for the “hold up” of tidal. It is also unproved on large scale.

    http://hmccc.s3.amazonaws.com/Renewables%20Review/The%20renewable%20energy%20review_Printout.pdf

  37. Jess

    jumpy: Unfortunately most of Australia’s largest tidal ranges (shown in the red colours on this map from BOM) are pretty far away from where the energy needs to be, with the possible exception of Bass Strait, some parts around Adelaide, and up near Mackay.

    Geoscience Australia has this assessment:

    Barrage-type tide energy systems generally require macro-tide ranges (greater than 4m), which are restricted to the broad northern shelf of Australia; from Port Hedland northwards to Darwin and the southern end of the Great Barrier Reef.

  38. jumpy

    quokka and jess,

    I understand that tidal is not suitable everywhere and neither is geothermal, but thats no reason to completely rule them both out.
    And yes i live in Mackay and worked at the GBR.There are vast areas of nothing in between , and i do mean nothing.

    Compared to offshore wind, I find it impossible to believe that offshore tidal is more expensive to build (vertualy the same materials,components and delivery),or less efficient ( 4 tides a day,2 in 2 out, and viscosity of water to air) no down time. No visual pollution affecting tourism
    ( important here) .

    I wish i could show you some concept drawing i have.
    Some based on this sort of thing and others;

    http://www.netcomposites.com/newspic.asp?3152

  39. jusme

    they could build the tidal, or even wave motion collector into the base of the offshore wind turbine perhaps? 2 or 3 sources in one unit. could be an engineering nightmare though.

  40. jumpy

    jusme

    That the spirit, test it , see if its a goa.

    Every site has it’s pros and cons.
    Seems to me that too many of these “experts” are making decisions while strolling along the bank of the filthy Yarra.(and yes i’ve seen it)