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32 responses to “IEA and the energy crunch of 2017”

  1. Roger Jones

    Good post. The CCS is strongly linked to gas. The expensive option in not acting is the cost of retiring fossil fuel-based infrastructure early. It’s actually cheaper in the long run to finance alternative energy sources, but more expensive in the initial project phase. This is an extraordinary blind-spot in the current political economy.

    This ties in with the politics-economics disjunct pointed out in Rob’s post of yesterday.

  2. John D

    Good post Brian. The practical problem I have with Christine’s view is that, in Aus:
    1 Geothermal is a maybe with lots of development to be done.
    2. Solar PV and wind lack the reliability to provide the amount of on demand power we think we need unless we go for massive power storage.
    3 The Greens would have a heart attack if we added nuclear to the mix.
    So the only pure green starter that we could get on with now is solar thermal with thermal storage.
    It might not be ideal but my policy choice would be a rapid, massive investment in CCGT starting right now combined with steady investment in renewables. This gives us time to sort out some practicalities associated with the alternatives as well as allowing much higher penetration of solar PV/wind before storage becomes essential.
    Part of the problem with the purist approach so far is that it has scared the horses actually held up the progress that could have been made.

  3. Huggybunny

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Energy_consumption.png

    Doubling of nuclear power generation will have a very small impact on GG emissions (see link above).
    What is needed is a completely new approach to energy production and consumption (The Yanks use about twice the energy per capita as any-one else including the Europeans).
    Huggy

  4. quokka

    #2 John D,

    Yes, a dash for gas is the inevitable consequence of the anti-nuke position. The piece on SkepticalScience reproduces an IEA chart showing the economic lifetimes of various energy infrastructure. Median for CCGT is 30 years. A program of replacing coal with CCGT would see the new infrastructure in place until at least 2050, or paying to get rid of it.

    All for what gain other than ticking some boxes on nominal CO2 emissions? How much effect it would have on temperature when fugitive emissions and reduced aerosols are taken into account remains an open question.

  5. Fran Barlow

    quokka said:

    How much effect it would have on temperature when fugitive emissions and reduced aerosols are taken into account remains an open question.

    We can replace the aerosols easily enough, and in a better distribution, if that’s what is needed, so I’m not sure about that part of the objection. In any event, that objection would certainly apply to nuclear power (or any other non-fossil HC or non-thermal source.

    Fugitive emissions are a more serious objection of course. Again though, it depends. There are fugitive emissions from coal. Transporting coal is also fairly energy intensive.

  6. Lefty E

    On a related note: with the moves to sell uranium to India, is there any moderately independent Australian foreign policy line that Gillard wont trash to fall in step with the US? This is getting bloody tiresome.

  7. wilful

    Huggy is right in that the assumption that we can and will increase our electricity consumption here in the first world by 10 percent has got to be seriously questioned. On the other hand, electric cars…

  8. Fran Barlow

    Really, if the ALP were consistent, it wouldn’t sell uranium to any state supplying any state that was not compliant with NNPT, or that was in turn supplying any state that was not compliant with NNPT and so forth.

    It seems that if Gillard has her way on this one, she ought also to move for abandonment of so much of the NNPT treaty as relates to supply of weaponisable materiel as she clearly thinks bilateral agreements are a better way to go.

  9. quokka

    @wilful,

    In Scotland, for example, 20% of end use of energy is electricity and 49% is heating. If you want to radically cut emissions from heating, heat pumps are mandatory. That means a big increase in electricity consumption. Similar situations must exist in many cold climate countries.

    The prospects for dramatically lower electricity consumption are remote.

  10. Doug Evans

    On my reading of the Executive Summary of the Report Christine Milne is dead right. In terms of the scenarios used in the report Milne is arguing from a 450ppm point of view about what must occur if we are to have a future worth having, while Ferguson is arguing from a New Policy point of view about what is likely to happen regardless. As Ferguson’s argument entails an estimated 3.5º C average temperature increase almost certainly enough to trigger runaway climate change his viewpoint should not be countenanced. If he’s right it’s probably game over. If this seems extreme read http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/06/07/238578/iea-golden-age-of-natural-gas-scenario-warming-climate-change/

    Some other thoughts:

    Given the existing situation in Australia we are not likely to move much before 2017 – only five years away. It will be 2015 before the ETS ends its fixed price period. The fixed price of $23 per tonne is only marginally more than half what is thought necessary to drive the shift from coal to to gas. It seems logical that without additional intervention not much new gas will be developed by the ETS before 2015. According to the IEA World Energy Outlook 2011 under these circumstances after 2017 the only viable option (if WE are to remain viable) will be renewables. Therefore unless I’m misunderstanding something, if we are to remain environmentally viable, the ‘Golden Age of Gas’ predicted by IEA can only last between two and five years. More of a ‘Golden Moment’.

    With the exception of one technique Carbon Capture and Storage seems as far off now as ever. The one exception it seems to me is cleaning power plant flue gas with algae which might then themselves be combusted and passed back through the system. Other more conventional CCS – capturing CO2 and burying it, is too beset with technical and economic difficulties to ever be able to be deployed on the scale that will be required.

    The evidence is stacking up that the lifecycle GHG emissions from gas, particularly unconventional gas extraction, transport and combustion are only marginally better than best practice coal combustion.

    So:
    The commercial deployment of some form of carbon capture (essential to the IEA scenarios) soon enough is somewhere between unlikely and unknown.

    The period in which added gas capacity, (even CCGT) is environmentally acceptable, is probably not more than five years.

    The GHG emissions advantages of gas combustion are increasingly seen to be marginal.

    and

    According to Parkinson ‘new gas’ will be additional to rather than replace ‘old coal’ in the developing world so will add to rather than slightly decrease emissions

    Milne is dead right but presumably for reasons of retaining political credibility states the case too conservatively.

  11. Wozza

    Let’s get our terminology straight to start with, so we can be clear what we are talking about.

    There is no “energy crunch of 2017”. Earlier this year the IEA doubled its estimate of gas reserves, on the back of recent discoveries of just how much shale gas there is around, to about 250 years worth at current usage rates. There is plenty of coal too, renewables are substantially increasing, and as per the previous thread even oil supply will keep trending up to past 2035 at least.

    What you are talking about is a climate policy crunch. This is not the same thing at all.

    I’m with quokka. What is clearly going to happen is a dash for gas. Partly because there is suddenly so much more of it which will (as it already is in eg the US) drive prices down. Partly because it is well-distributed (not least with a lot in Europe) which helps combat growing energy security concerns in regard to dependence on external sources of dubious political reliability. And partly (admittedly not greatly) because, despite attempts for some unfathomable – well, I could speculate, but it would be unconstructive – reason to talk it down on the part of deep and even medium Greens, it makes a significant if not game-changing contribution, if it replaces coal, to reducing CO2 emissions.

    That’s the real world. Those who are concerned with its climate policy implications are going to have to work with it somehow, not deny it. A main reason why there is such a push-back against climate change concerns in public opinion, imho, is that people draw the obvious conclusion from those who scream about the need to change energy policy to reduce emissions instantaneously and voluminously – but as long as it’s not by nuclear, not by hydro, and now, it appears, not by gas either. This does not give the impression of being either practical or serious – merely of being ideological.

    For mine, the key new factor is shale (and other unconventional) gas. I mean, doubling gas reserve estimates – by 130 years worth – virtually overnight is just incredible. How should policy makers react to that? Ignoring it is not an option.

  12. quokka

    Tom Wigley’s paper modelling the global temperature effects of a transition from coal to gas is here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/b430681263425q64/fulltext.pdf

    It does take into account methane emissions from coal mining.

    The net effect on global temperature this century is minimal and he concludes that while there may be reasons for choosing gas over coal, mitigating climate change is not one of them.

    If this is largely correct, then what is the point of building a whole lot of CCGT?

  13. Wozza

    And, quokka, there has been a subsequent study released alleging that Wigley fiddled the evidence by not comparing like with like (“however, the WorleyParsons study found coal could compete with gas on greenhouse emissions only when the cleanest coal technology was compared with the dirtiest gas-fired plant”).

    http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2011/11/04/402765_latest-news.html

    Yes, that study is not from a wholly disinterested source, but Wigley has form too. He is out of UEA, and indeed was the author of one of the more incriminating climategate e-mails, describing how he had reduced a temperature “blip” by 0.15C for no other reason than that he wanted to.

    One of the tragedies of the current mess is that there are almost no unequivocally credible sources any more, anywhere.

    Anyway, I still think that the point is that the dash for gas is going to happen, whatever Wigley thinks, and policy needs to be based on that reality.

  14. quokka

    @Wozza

    Not interesting in arguing with innuendo and nonsense. If you have a criticism of Wigley’s paper, then present it. Otherwise, please desist.

  15. Wozza

    Not interested in arguing either.

    I have provided a link which enables you to trace a study disagreeing with yours. If you wish to believe that your link is true and pure, and mine is innuendo, your privllege. I have an open mind and merely note that there are competing views. Tribalism is not compulsory.

  16. John D

    Funny thing but it is the bankers who might save us. Investment in fossil fuel fired power generation will only take place if finance can be arranged. Arranging finance for fossil fuel will become more and more difficult as bankers perceive that there is a real chance that they will be caught with a dud loan to a company that was too stupid to see where the future was leading to.
    Rudd was able to go into the 2007 election with a climate action policy as a key argument for supporting him because of the long drought. Think record temperatures, more extreme weather and we could well see a rush to action. In a crisis situation there isn’t going to be spare money to compensate companies who didn’t give a stuff about the effect of their decisions on the world environment.

  17. quokka

    #15 Wozza,

    You really do have a nerve, don’t you. Slandering individual scientists and then concern trolling about “tribalism”.

    You have also entirely managed to avoid the point of the Wigley paper which models and quantifies effect on climate of a transition from coal to gas. The WorleyParsons report does no such thing.

  18. zoot

    He is out of UEA, and indeed was the author of one of the more incriminating climategate e-mails …

    That would be the climategate emails which were found to incriminate no-one – yes?

  19. Wozza

    OK, Brian, I don’t think I lecture any more than a number of others, but fair enough.

    So it appears, then, that it is considered unnecessary to discuss here the implications of the sudden realisation of the amount and potential of unconventional gas developments, in favour of a purist position that energy policy and markets should be determined by solely by and within the framework of IPCC climate change models. Again, fair enough, that at least is a position with arguable intellectual consistency (if, without wanting to lecture, in my view some rather head in the sand aspects as well), and it is your blog which I know is heavily focused on climate change.

    There are plenty of other blogs on which energy policy is discussed more broadly and in greater depth, so I won’t bother you here with issues like shale gas again.

  20. wilful

    Wozza, I certainly will take on face value your statement that we have lots and lots of ‘unconventional’ (soon to be labelled conventional) gas. Meanwhile Victoria has 750 years of brown coal reserves, probably more if we could be bothered looking for it.

    The entire point of the IEA report from my reading of it is that we have absolutely no time at all to stop building new polluting power plants if we want to avoid a climate crisis. If people do build them in the next few years, then they will have to expect that they will be shut down early, and can’t come whinging to government when their claimed 50 year asset is shut after 15 years.

    For me, the only feasible answer at this point in time is a lot of new build nuclear power plants (gen 3+, we can’t wait for gen 4) – along with a lot of renewables, they’re complementary not competing. I cannot see another answer that doesn’t involve breaching likely climate tipping points, or radical (fanciful) societal change. But I realise that this debate is somewhat tired around here.

  21. Wozza

    Brian, yes, but that is exactly my point. You keep going back to the 450 scenario for your “facts” because “the other scenarios being too awful to contemplate”.

    That is your privilege as I said, in terms of what you think the the framework for discussion should be. But there are other scenarios and frameworks, which other people actually do contemplate, believing that fingers in ears may not always be the best position to construct policy from.

  22. Doug Evans

    Brian
    Yes 450ppm is too high. It has been accepted for ages that 350 or less is what must be achieved. Milne understands this perfectly. I have heard both her and Adam Bandt acknowledge this more than once. So far they have been constrained by what they deem to be possible. In the MPCCC negotiations Giles Parkinson commented on Radio National that The Greens wanted a start price well above $40 per tonne – presumably trying to leapfrog the ‘golden age of gas’ and head straight to renewables. I guess the CEFC is the trade-off that enabled the two Greens to sign off on the package.

    Again on the report I also understand that the IEA is saying that unless immediate action is taken to reduce the amount of dirty new generating capacity all new capacity after 2017 must be clean renewables or replacement for existing dirty capacity. Assuming that we acknowledge that gas is dirty not clean (as my local member Martin Ferguson seems to believe) I was trying to speculate on what that meant for Australia. It occurred to me that the ETS is unlikely to prompt much of a move even to gas with a three year fixed price of $23 per tonne. I was suggesting that this took us at least to 2015 without much action. I still think this is right.

    41% of Australian new energy investment is in renewables (wind mostly) and 36% is in gas. The so called ‘golden age of gas’ has already started. Presumably the remaining 23% is coal’s hopefully shrinking share. Parkinson noted in the Climate Spectator piece you linked to, that in China gas was additional to existing coal fired capacity rather than its replacement. He does not note that the same applies to Australia. New gas-fired generation emits almost as much as coal fired generation. What this means is that so far only 41% of new capacity – which is additional-to rather than replacement-for existing capacity is clean renewables. The other half is the same old same old.

    So no gain there – our emissions continue their upward trend albeit at a slightly reduced rate of growth.

    As far as I know no coal fired plant has yet been replaced by ‘clean’ gas or anything else. If it occurs Victoria’s Hazelwood and the smaller South Australian plant will be the first, courtesy the $2 billion buy out in the Clean Energy legislation. But even if this happens phasing out and replacement of this capacity will take us almost to 2017. Worse; construction of Australian coal fired capacity is continuing apace. A short time ago there were more than a dozen new coal fired power plants in the pipeline for Australia.

    It appears at the moment that, together with most of the rest of the world’s developed economies, Australia will hit the wall and be forced to change very rapidly around 2017. If the change can’t be managed at that point, the message of the IEA report is that the future is bleak. Either way it looks as though it will be a white knuckle ride. Better hold on tight.

  23. Doug Evans

    quokka
    thanks didn’t know about Wigley paper I’ve downloaded it and I’ll have a look.

  24. David Irving (no relation)

    Wozza, the only person with his fingers in his ears is you, if you think that even 450ppm (let alone higher levels) is safe.

  25. John Bennetts

    Wilful @ 24:
    Agreed re Gen 3+ nuclear. It seems to me that something has to give – either the opposition to nuclear or a whiole lotta social realignment. Speaking only for myself and not wishing to start a flaming session, I’m travelling the the conservation pathway, but I’m not optimistic that industrial users will have much success. Commercial electricity customers don’t appear to give a fig except for one hour per year on World Environment Day for the photo op, then its back to business as usual.

    It’s not encouraging to perceive that many are firmly dug into their own foxholes re climate change. We are leaving the next couple of generations a difficult challenge.

    Has there ever been a war of this magnitude that has been met by such a blase attitude? Perhaps next year, when the barbarians are at the gates…