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323 responses to “What next? Open thread”

  1. Bolt1493

    Rudd to hold the election on 14/9 and no no confidence vote tomorrow. Major bitching to start from inside ALP in 2 weeks. Senate will be a balance with the independents having enough votes that Abbot will not always, if ever, need the greens. Swan not to contest his seat

  2. J Frank Parnell

    Ged Kearney for Lalor?

  3. alfred venison

    they should keep carr on foreign affairs. -a.v.

  4. Bolt1493

    Swan is recontesting his seat. Good farewell speech by Gillard

  5. Hoa Minh Truong

    Kevin Rudd victory will not rescue Labor in the next election while the big problems are facing as asylum seeker, carbon tax $192 billion debt…Therefore there are some Labor members believe few seats to be remained, but inside, Labor divided from the rivalries, the wound has not healed yet.
    The Labor power shows down in Australia, likely in China, before Xi Jinping taken the leadership, the wing of Bo Xilai to be eliminated. So some senior ministers who are loyalty with Julia Gillard will be gone. A recycle Labor leader Kevin Rudd returns as the last revenge to his beloved comrade Julia Gillard as the saying of Vietnamese:” the fish eat ant, then ant eat fish”. The power struggle should be ended for a while, but beside Kevin Rudd, there is a Pie-Minister Bill Shorten who is fully ambition to be top job; however, a man just endorsed Julia Gillard in Afternoon, but evening changes to support Kevin Rudd, so people couldn’t trust him.

  6. Graham Bell

    The Chinese will be very unhappy and very annoyed. Wonder what they’ll do to hinder Rudd and the Labor Party forming the next government? No shortage of potential quislings in Australian political circles these days so they’ll have no trouble finding willing recruits t o do their bidding.

  7. Graham Bell

    Hoa Minh Truong @ 5

    There is no shortage of ambition; Bill Shorten, Penny Wong, Greg Combet and quite a few others. Unfortunately, for Labor, Craig Emerson is leaving.

  8. Peter Murphy

    I had to Google the proverb mentioned by Mr. Hoa, because I’d never heard of it before. The actual parable appears to be: “When the water rises, the fish eat the ants; when the water recedes, the ants eat the fish”.

    It suits.

  9. philip travers

    .10:32 and all is like a church bell in a dentist’s Root Canal work.ABC need a pee facing the camera for so long Now 10:34 and it is like a Sinus Love in.Wanting a Pee and a Sinus Love in is a cruelty! 10:35 ABC You Tubeing.Taking a gamble 10:36

  10. Nickws

    Rudd is making a very good attempt at going over the heads of the media right now. He’s showing the stuff he was capable of far more often than Gillard was.

    @ 5

    carbon tax $192 billion debt

    Heh, is this a single policy thing you’re talking about, i.e. carbon pricing creating $192,000,000,000 worth of red ink somewhere?

    No, don’t correct me, I want to believe this is real Abbott-inspired talking points craziness.

  11. Liz

    Fuck. It’s so painful listening to Rudd’s awful cliches ‘rocking around the place’ after Gillard’s speech.

  12. philip travers

    Its Up to You New York. New York! Boring bastards.

  13. GregM

    Graham Bell@6

    The Chinese will be very unhappy and very annoyed. Wonder what they’ll do to hinder Rudd and the Labor Party forming the next government?

    Nothing at all I expect. Why would they need to do anything?

    I don’t think any sensible person believes that Labor changing leaders will change who will form the government after the election.

  14. Patrickb

    Heard a bit of Abbott, he already sounds tired and laboured. This reminded me what the landscape looked like pre 2010 coup. There is a noticeable contrast between his and Abbott’s rhetorical style, something that was lacking between Abbott and Gillard. It will be interesting to see how the press numpties and the public handle it.

  15. Nickws

    Oh yeah, Liz, something you said on the other thread:

    A few years ago I was producing a doco. I sent a crew up to Canberra to interview some pollies for it, Rudd was one of them. Before their encounter with him, they all felt quite positive about him. After, they loathed him. I was told he had this amazing ability to switch from affable faux folksiness when the camera was on and then switch to incredible nastiness to everyone, for no reason. They were gobsmacked. This was before he was PM.

    The man did this to a truly pivotal part of his base, the non-gallery meeja?

    Sure he did. Sure.

    You might as well have told an anecdote about KRudd angrily shouting “Do you know who I AM!!11!!!”

    [First and last warning: abuse of other commenters will not be tolerated on this thread. ~ Mod]

  16. Peter Murphy

    First poll out post-Gillard: ALP 49.5 Coalition 50.5. 5 percent swing to ALP from previous effort.

  17. Russell

    Yes Liz, and now we’re cooking with gas.

    Had to make myself watch it: the traitor and the clown giving a press conference.

    Well, I won’t make predictions about the election result, because I didn’t predict that the caucus had 57 gutless morons in it. I do predict the media will give Rudd a honeymoon because they don’t report, they create, they create stories, dramas, and they will want to make more of a competition drama out of the coming election.

  18. Patrickb

    I agree with Liz that Gillard has been treated appallingly and that this country has unique strain of sexism, racism and other discriminations that you just don’t see in other comparable countries. Comments like the “ffs” one on the previous thread bear this out. With that in mind though the immediate problem of dealing with Abbott is probably helped by tonight’s developments. How we deal with the other problem is much harder, I’ve seen things deteriorate over the last twenty odd years.

  19. Liz

    Yes. Nickws. He did. Or do you think I’m telling a lie?

  20. Katz

    The spectacle of ALP careerists eating Rudd’s shit sandwiches belongs in Petronius’ Satyricon.

  21. David Irving (no relation)

    Graham Bell, on the spill thread you compared Gillard with Gorton. I think that’s a bit unfair, actually. Gorton was a lovable rogue, but Gillard has demonstrated she has considerable substance. I think her legacy will compare favourably with Whitlam’s, despite what I expect Abbott will do to try and unravel it.

  22. Chris

    First poll out post-Gillard: ALP 49.5 Coalition 50.5. 5 percent swing to ALP from previous effort.

    Another hung parliament? :-)

  23. Liz

    That was my first thought, Chris. Minority government here we come.

  24. faustusnotes

    Two things this week made me think the ALP need Rudd.

    1. an article with a title something like “new hair bad polls” that simultaneously talked about Gillard’s new hairdo and also gave a review of how bad her polls were without actually presenting any news. But was somehow published in a “news” paper

    2. the response to Gillard’s women’s weekly article. This was universally presented as a stunt. I am on Gillard’s twitter feed, so I know that she is a committed knitter – she talks about it often on her feed. All the journos who presented it as a stunt are also on her twitter feed. They know it’s her real personality but chose to present her women’s weekly article as a stunt. To me, this was the final proof that they are absolutely 100% out to get her.

    The ALP cannot win while the media have this attitude. GIllard is, in my view, the inheritor of Hawke’s politics, a real representative of working people within the (considerable) constraints of the ALP. Rudd is a political naif and possibly a class traitor – definitely he is no representative of working people. But he can win and she can’t, because the media are out to destroy her and misogyny is a weapon she can’t defend against.

    I’m sad for Gillard and the ALP, but even sadder for a nation in which a competent politician is destroyed by the media because of her gender and her labour allegiance, and the entire political debate reduced to a dick-waving contest between two conservative also-rans.

  25. Nickws

    [edited ~ Mod] mybe y’v mntlly mpsd tht fms Ytb pn ths flm crw’s xprnc.

    This non-gallery media crew that apparently experienced the rare site of Sunrise man letting his guard down around Sunrise-type working media folk from outside Canberra.

    [redacted for personal abuse ~ Mod]

  26. Nickws

    [redacted for personal abuse ~ Mod]
    Bolt would be besides himself with envy.

  27. Nickws

    GIllard is, in my view, the inheritor of Hawke’s politics, a real representative of working people within the (considerable) constraints of the ALP. Rudd is a political naif and possibly a class traitor – definitely he is no representative of working people.

    Gillard was the child of white collar workers, Rudd the child of itinerant, nun-unionised bush laborers.

    [redacted for personal abuse ~Mod]

  28. paul burns

    So, with a bit of luck, now we won’t have an Abbott Government. So far as I’m concerned that’s all that matters.

  29. faustusnotes

    I actually don’t rate Whitlam’s legacy, but it’s possible I’m biased because of a) East Timor and b) not being an adult before Whitlam. However, crediting Whitlam with a political legacy I don’t personally accept, and accepting that none of us are really in a position to judge the pre-WW2 labourites fully, I would like to assign Gillard a ranking somewhere about the same as Hawke. Climate change is a much bigger challenge than anything Hawke faced, but it’s something Gillard can’t tackle alone; however, she introduced a real and serious policy to handle climate change, that was shown to work immediately, that was economically responsible and conservative, preserved labour values, and was measured in its approach. She met the “great moral challenge of our time” (to quote a pencil-dicked pusillanimous loser) with a solid policy response. In my book that puts her up with the Curtins, Hawkes and Whitlams of the party.

    Rudd, on the other hand, is famous for a mining “tax” that would have seen ordinary Australians’ income tax being handed over to Gina Reinhardt. What a winner!

  30. faustusnotes

    Nickws, everyone these days has a university education, and that’s not a bad thing. [redacted ~Mod] The whole point of the ALP is to enable anyone to get an education – so that having one no longer matters!

  31. Nickws

    Rudd, on the other hand, is famous for a mining “tax” that would have seen ordinary Australians’ income tax being handed over to Gina Reinhardt.

    What does this ever mean?

    Rudd’s failed mining tax couldn’t have been any worse than Gillard’s mining tax, aka the one that is raising significantly less than it was promised to. The standard critique has it that the RSPT was a better, more progressive tax than the MRRT.

    And you bring up, what, conspircay theories about Rudd’s draft?

    I hope you’re not a LaRouchite or something. Not that that’s not your right. But seriously.

  32. Nickws

    [redacted]

    I would have not used this analogy, faustusnotes. Not here. Not anywhere.[that's why it has now been redacted ~Mod]

    But, no, you’re original concept of millionaire lawyer Gillard being more working class than millionaire technocrat (& possible class traitor) Rudd, still doesn’t really adhere very well, even if we ignore their family origins.

    But as a uni-educated person I’m glad you’re letting me into uni-educated working-class-mobilisation political dialogue.:-)

  33. faustusnotes

    nickws, check this out. It’s a recipe for a kind of mineral resources zaibatsu, with sovereign risk. For example:

    If the project fails so that revenue never exceeds compounded costs (i.e., if the tax base never becomes positive), the government reimburses the investor for a proportion of the net costs that the investor has incurred.

    There are other points in that article about why mining companies will not be able to trust the tax. Gillard’s was far superior, even if it produced less money in the short term. Rudd is a spinner, not a thinker.

  34. faustusnotes

    also, wtf are you on about with “Rudd’s draft”? I don’t know what you mean or how I was talking about any kind of draft. Are you reading what I wrote?

  35. Brian

    I was out in Upper Brookfield when the news of the petition came. Out of mobile range, but my radio was working.

    Tonight when Shorten made his statement and we knew the game was up, my wife shed a tear and I’m very sad. Tonight the word “stalking” was used, I think by Annabel Crabb. I can’t condone what Rudd did to Gillard over the past three years, but I’d have to agree with Shorten that these are desperate times, so I’ll accept what he did, without forgiving. That acceptance is made easier by the grace of Gillard’s concession speech. Her reputation will grow with time.

    Looking forward, Laura Tingle says that one of his tasks will be to rejig policy, which he sketched in tonight:

    His focus will be the economy and jobs, national security, education, health and climate change.

    Notice anything missing? Boats and asylum seekers. Unless they fit under the ‘national security’ heading.

    He also didn’t talk about party reform but book that one in too, if for no other reason than the fact the unions continued to bitterly fight his return on Wednesday.

    Look what happened today on Gonski. It passed into law and it looks as though Victoria will come on board:

    Dr Napthine says Victoria will commit an extra $3.5 billion over six years, if the Federal Government contributes $7 billion.

    But he says Victoria must retain the right to distribute the funding as it sees fit, and urged Ms Gillard to consider his changes.

    Ms Gillard says she is open to talks with Dr Napthine.

    “I look forward to working with him in good faith, to make sure that Victorian students are not left behind and that our nation is offering them a world-class education as their birth right,” she said.

    She said that in Question Time, which some people say I shouldn’t listen to lest it rot my brain

    So who will talk to him now? I think Annabel Crabb said in passing that Rudd is not a big fan of Gonski.

  36. Terry

    I think that the time has now come to put the blood letting behind, unify under Kevin Rudd’s leadership, and focus on the main task of beating Tony Abbott and the Coalition, rather than engage in more internal navel gazing.

  37. Lefty E

    Im throwing caution to the wind folks: Rudd to win it.

    Yes, you heard it here first. I predict the following:

    - LNP campaign currently in shredder.
    - LNP reserve campaign quoting unpopoular ALP ministers hating Rudd boost Rudd’s popularity enormously and become ALP secret weapon. They play it for 2 weeks before realising its an own goal which only reminds people how much theyve hated all this crap lately.
    - LNP strategy now in chaos, now plagued by doubt and anxiety. Firmer theme of ALP disunity undermined by fresh talk of Turnbull.
    - Polls reinforce MSM worry that as school bully they are no longer beating up the unpopular kid. Bored cat MSM looking for a new mouse to torment, finds useless bunch of no-hopers quivering in a cardboard box called “coalition frontbench”. Chews on their legs a bit, but keeps them alive for later.
    - Ably assisted by Bowen, Rudd jumps on the economy and rides it throughout the land, rejecting austerity and trumpting ALP success in averting the GFC everywhere.
    - QLD primary vote for ALP rises 5%. LNP now must win several seats that are not complete giveaways. The pressure results in several fuses blowing. Nothing major, but they are no longer composed. MSM smells fear.
    - Under pressure, Abbott forced to speak in public. Disaster strikes: punters discover he’s a pork chop.
    - Confusion reigns as MSM torn between word from Masters to back Abbott, and the better stories associated with their repeated mishaps under new pressure.
    - Rudd demolishes Abbott in all three debates.
    - Albo proves highly effective as deputy. Wong a winner in the Senate.
    - Women preselected in safe VIC seats.
    - ALP discovers late 20th century has happened already on gay marriage. It proves popular. Abbott now one with headache there.
    - Its close, but Rudd wins in a thriller, 51%.

    Etc. I know this is all optimism of the will over pessimism of the intellect territory, but screw it. Ive even put my money where my mouth is to the tune of $50. Optimism of the wallet!

    I invite you to join me in these beliefs. Varying degrees of suspended disbelief tolerated at meetings.

  38. Graham Bell

    GregM @ 13 – comment on Chinese reaction

    Nothing at all I expect. Why would they need to do anything?

    They’ll be all smiles and congratulations, of course.

    However, as I said @ 88 on the other post ((sorry, couldn’t link)): the Chinese like their “field-n[word][Mod]” to be docile, obsequious, easily awed, unassertive, ignorant and so on. Rudd has a lot of faults but these aren’t among them.

    He is not a threat to them but, unlike most Australian businessmen, he is not dead-easy to manipulate and so he has the potential to annoy them and to do the unexpected.

    For them, life would be less complicated if he wasn’t Prime Minister of a minor country on the periphery of their ancestral lands …. that’s why they will be compelled to do something; why would they want to neglect sorting out a potential problem before it becomes a real problem?

    Don’t forget that there was a recent generational change in the Chinese leadership …. and a change in directions, strategies and, I suspect, ambitions too.

  39. Graham Bell

    Katz @ 20

    Well put. :-)

    D.I. (NR) @ 21

    You’re right. Gorton was the first PM who came into my mind: he overcame nasty discrimination too, he left an enduring legacy too, he inspired young Australians too, his departure from the office of PM was dignified and honourable too. Julia Gillard was unique …. not because she is a woman; a woman PM was inevitable …. but because of the many good things she did under difficult circumstances..

    LeftyE @ 37

    I like your summary …. but suggest it will be Hockey rather than Turnbull who replaces Abbott before the election.

  40. Paul Norton

    Chris @22 and Liz @23, if that eventuates it will be a situation that Rudd will not handle anywhere near as well as Gillard did in 2010 (even after allowance is made for her political mishandling of carbon pricing). On the other hand it does raise the issue of what will be left of the HoR cross-bench after the election. Windsor and Oakeshott will be gone, replaced by Nationals; Thompson and Slipper almost certainly will be gone as well; the prospects of Wilkie and (regrettably) Bandt will have also received a setback with Rudd as leader (although that’s not the only dynamic at work in each of those seats). Katter is the only one of the current cross-bench who can be confident of still being there after the election, and he has said he’ll support Rudd.

  41. Lefty E

    I can go with that amendment Graham.

    Welcome to Hopetown, QLD.

  42. Paul Norton

    Maggie on the other thread raised the question of what the Greens will do if Mr. Rabbit wins the HoR but the Greens retain the Senate balance of power. I expect a Rabbit government will put forward a legislative program that most Greens will feel obliged to oppose outright. Christine Milne’s role and position will be interesting and, I suspect, not entirely comfortable for her. History, and some of her own statements, suggests that her instinct will be to try to negotiate legislative outcomes with the Coalition, but I expect the Coalition’s program to be so egregious that the Greens party room and Greens organisation won’t wear it. Also, from the standpoint of electoral realpolitik, the worst thing the Greens could do is to be accommodating to a Coalition government.

  43. Katz

    Vox publica, vox Dei.

    Trouble is, the public have tin ears.

    The ALP has taken a giant step away from representing progressive aspirations. Some reflective French folk must have thought similar things while watching Napoleon crowning himself emperor.

  44. Paul Norton

    Here’s Peter Garrett’s view on the whole affair.

  45. Paul Norton

    Penny Wong on ABC Radio National and TV stating that she shifted from Gillard to Rudd last week.

  46. alfred venison

    Grahame Bell at 162 last thread
    you’re welcome. knowing this, would you buy an e-textbook from a university law professor? -a.v.

  47. Paul Norton

    One thing that can be predicted with reasonable confidence is that the events of the past three years in Australian politics will give rise to a spate of interesting books over the next three.

  48. Peter Murphy

    I think Gillard will go down in history as a better PM than Whitlam. But as Greg Jericho argues: she never won the people.

  49. alfred venison

    eva cox says “basically she was not connecting with people “.
    http://theconversation.com/kevin-rudd-defeats-julia-gillard-expert-reaction-15567 -a.v.

  50. Linda

    faustusnotes@30: [redacted][I agree Linda and I have deleted it]

    Really?

  51. Sam

    I’m looking to two months of Anthony Albanese, of all people, as Treasurer.

  52. David

    According to her press conference, Milne is trying to blackmail Rudd into holding the election at the same time as Gillard wanted.

  53. Katz

    Can Rudd keep it together long enough to deny Abbott the Senate?

    This will be a fascinating contest between pragmatism and hubris.

  54. Liz

    I hope you’re right Lefty E. but, I notice in Rudd’s speech he gave a big shout out to business. I think he’ll back out of the carbon price. He didn’t have the guts for it last time he was PM.

    He’ll need to make his own mark. I wonder how he’ll do it?

  55. mindy

    He has plenty of options Liz, he can allow same sex marriage, change asylum seeker policy to onshore processing, give funding back to tertiary bodies. I think he will claim he doesn’t have enough time and squib it myself. If I were Rudd I’d go for an earlier election before I tangled myself up in my own feet again like last time.

  56. Verity

    All bound for Hopetown Qld!

  57. Jumpy

    I notice a lot of ALP men have fallen on their political swords yet no women have.
    Strange.

  58. mindy

    Is that because it was the men who held the Cabinet positions under Rudd, and so where the ones how had to deal with the fallout Rudd caused? That’s why Garrett is gone, he copped the blame for Rudd’s fuck up with the pink batt scheme and I don’t blame him for getting out.

  59. Katz

    Quite true Mindy.

  60. Jumpy

    @ 58
    Well Wong got promoted.
    What of Ellis and Plibersek?
    But i was thinking more along the lines of how many were anti-Rudd pro-Gillard in the last spill.

  61. Lefty E

    Hop aboard Verity! I invite more speculation of limited actual foundation, to be made true through its essential rightness of spirit, and brought forth in general mass optimigasms of will.

    No Abbott: cos I say, and QLD is onside, and RUDDSTORM, so shutup.

  62. jules

    Sorry Barry Cassidy, turns out you were right…

    A pity, cos for all her fuck ups and dodgy policy history will remember Gillard as a better pm than Howard, Rudd and Abbott if he gets elected.

    I for one hope the election date is changed. Its my daughter’s second birthday. On my wife’s second birthday, Maggie Thatcher got elected for the first time. That sort of history repeats would be sad.

    Also the coalition has effectively won two seats up front cos Oakeshott and Windsor will be gone. Tony Windsor is a real loss imo, considering he is basically a conservative cow cocky – at least he appears to have some integrity and the ability to think through the consequences of his actions. Hope his medical issues aren’t too serious.

    The real question is – are we gonna see any scrutiny of policies (and reality) now?

    Tho if Rudd backs out on Carbon Pricing and decides to ‘stop the boats’ (that is what Carr seemed to hint at last night) himself is there any difference between the ALP and the coalition?

  63. Fran Barlow

    Here’s something I wrote on June 11 this year:

    Australia will continue to be as failed (a state) under Rudd or Abbott. These would simply be different iterations of the same underlying reality, though the ascent of Abbott would be a further advance along that path, much as degenerative diseases in humans have a sequence.

    At the expressive level, one may be horrified at the ascent of Abbott, much as when someone’s degenerative disease produces some ugly physical or intellectual manifestation but even if someone devises some way to obscure this, the disease will be no better or less harmful. Having Rudd take over probably wouldn’t even achieve this as it would signal the complete collapse of the ALP’s internal coherence. The persistence of Gillard points to the possibility that the disease isn’t terminal — that they can still resist Murdoch at some level. Either way though, the ALP is profoundly ill and of almost no use to anyone — not even the majority of its own spivs.

    A poster asked:

    That of course leads to the interesting psychological question of why this prime minister is so determined that the ship should go down with her.

    I continued:

    It’s not an interesting psychological question. It may well be that she believes that the party could do no worse with her than Rudd and that Rudd might do even worse than her. That case is entirely plausible.

    It may be that she thinks that if she goes down swinging then the policies she implemented need not be abandoned, and could form the basis of a future ALP regime’s legacy. At least, unlike with Rudd, they could at least put their policies on their CV, and if the regime gets hammered, then her successor can inherit them.

    Really though, should a left-of-centre person care what passes for reason in the heads of socially conservative populism-mongering boss-class spivs like Gillard or Rudd? Only, in my view, if it helps refute their political legitimacy in the eyes of working people. Apart from that benefit, it’s worth nothing.

    Democracy is not all that strong or meaningful in this country, and truthfully, never has been, but yesterday, we received further confirmation of its parlous condition.

  64. Lefty E

    The Wongster is with the program. Get onboard.

    Oh why oh why might she have changed her mind and turned against Gillard ? Safe senate spot after all.

    Ill give you three guesses. But youll only need one.

  65. Chris

    He has plenty of options Liz, he can allow same sex marriage, change asylum seeker policy to onshore processing, give funding back to tertiary bodies.

    Re: same sex marriage – he’d still actually have to get something through parliament wouldn’t he? Having a PM who supports same sex marriage though is a first and does give him the ability to criticise Abbott over it though which may be enough to push Abbott to promise to allow a conscience vote if he is elected.

    I’m hoping for a change on asylum seeker policy – he was the one who warned about a future change when he was pushed out in 2010. Would be good to have a leader who leads in asylum seeker policies rather than follows the LNP line. Tertiary funding should be a relatively easy fix given they can drop the whole surplus NOW line.

    With the carbon price there is a pretty easy out – just move to a floating price ASAP. The price drops significantly which makes many businesses happy and yet we still have an ETS but neutralises the carbon “tax” issue and no one can really complain about the drop in price because it was going to happen anyway.

  66. Chris

    What of Ellis and Plibersek?

    Ellis wasn’t in Rudd’s original cabinet, neither was Lundy. Plibersek and Wong (who changed sides were) as was Roxon who jumped ship a few months ago. IIRC Ellis is on a pretty small margin so would not want to give up any advantage she has. That Wong changed sides is very interesting – as Lefty mentioned she has a very safe spot (#1 on the ticket) so had nothing to be personally concerned about. And the #2 on the ticket Farrell (ick!) stayed with Gillard.

  67. Liz

    I have no problems with what the various Caucus and Cabinet members have done; whether they’ve stayed or gone. They’ll all have their reasons honourable and otherwise.

    I don’t even have a problem with Shorten. I know he’s loathed by many and I’m sure he’s deeply ambitious and unscrupulous in many ways. But, I also know from people working in the disability sector think he was great minister, who got the issues and worked hard to make policy happen. He’s one of the reasons we have the NDIS and that matters.

  68. Jumpy

    *Newsflash:-*
    Rudd getting sworn in now.
    Multi-millionaire wife looks on, glowingly.
    Shortens Mother in law does the paper work.
    We have a new old PM again.

  69. GregM

    Democracy is not all that strong or meaningful in this country, and truthfully, never has been, but yesterday, we received further confirmation of its parlous condition.

    Can you name a few countries you have in mind where democracy is or has ever been strong and meaningful as points of comparison with Australia.

  70. Liz

    Nice ableism upthread, Fran B. Abbott as someone with a disfiguring, degenerative disease. I suggest you do some reading. Perhaps Carly Findlay’s blog about how this sort of language is so damaging to people. She has a disease which causes an “ugly…physical manifestation”. I doubt that she’d be happy being used as an analogy for Abbott.

  71. Jumpy

    Chris@66

    Ellis wasn’t in Rudd’s original cabinet

    From Wiki.

    Ellis was elected to the House of Representatives for the Division of Adelaide, South Australia at the 2004 federal election. She defeated Liberal Party incumbent Trish Worth. At the 2007 federal election, Ellis retained her seat with a 48.6% primary vote, and a 58.4% two-party preferred vote.
    After the election Kevin Rudd appointed Ellis Minister for Youth and Minister for Sport. This made her the youngest person ever to become an Australian government minister

    Ya better let them know of their error.

  72. Liz

    Oh yes, and Australia as a (failed) state. How ridiculous.

  73. Chris

    I have no problems with what the various Caucus and Cabinet members have done; whether they’ve stayed or gone. They’ll all have their reasons honourable and otherwise.

    I agree. And I’d guess those that have announced they won’t be contesting their seats are those who would have quit if they’d lost after the next election anyway (Gillard included).

  74. Paul Norton

    Jumpy @60, I think Tanya Plibersek’s position in 2010, 2012 and certainly earlier this year was to support the leader, whoever it was, against destabilisation. Under all the circumstances I think Rudd would have to appoint her to at least as senior a portfolio as she currently holds.

  75. Russell

    “I have no problems with what the various Caucus and Cabinet members have done; whether they’ve stayed or gone. They’ll all have their reasons honourable and otherwise.”

    Really – no problems with people acting for dishonourable reasons?

  76. Chris

    Jumpy @ 71 – those weren’t cabinet positions.

  77. akn

    Labor to win with Rudd as leader. Nothwithstanding the gripes about his dysfunctional first term he is immensely popular with the electorate which, by and large, cares not at all, indeed, even expects politicians to be dysfunctional. Abbott sure is. Rudd provides a viable choice. Gillard’s numbers were appalling. A no brainer.

  78. Brian

    Wong has given her reasons. Similar to Shorten. Gillard a great person but we gotta win.

    Dennis Atkins says the parameters for the election are 3 August to 30 November. He says Rudd will need a couple of weeks to bed down policy changes a retune election campaign, but then should go ASAP. So maybe 10 August.

    Atkins says Rudd will probably go straight to a floating price for carbon, likes Gonski, but thinks it’s incomprehensible, so a new coat of paint there.

    Atkins reckons Rudd may go tougher on asylum seekers. Hard to imagine what that might mean.

  79. Lefty E

    OPPOSITION Leader Tony Abbott has indicated he is not likely to move a motion of no confidence in the new Kevin Rudd government, saying he is not into “parliamentary games”.

    http://www.news.com.au/national-news/federal-election/tony-abbott-responds-to-labor-leadership-change/story-fnho52ip-1226670462995#ixzz2XN582r9p

    Shorter version: He’s done the numbers. He lost. Again.

  80. Lefty E

    Labor to win with Rudd as leader.

    Word.

  81. Brian

    akn, it’s not so much that the people expect politicians to be dysfunctional. They don’t mind bossy people, think they’re strong, and beating up on public servants is OK because they are a lazy bunch of no-hopers and deserve no better.

  82. paul burns

    Advice to Kevin Rudd: Do not buy a dog and name it Reuben while you are living in the Lodge. Both Keating and Gillard did so and neither survived as PM.

  83. Chris

    Dennis Atkins says the parameters for the election are 3 August to 30 November. He says Rudd will need a couple of weeks to bed down policy changes a retune election campaign, but then should go ASAP. So maybe 10 August.

    That is other benefit which the ALP have regained – they get to set the election date at a time that is convenient to them. Although my belief is we should have fixed terms federally.

    Atkins reckons Rudd may go tougher on asylum seekers. Hard to imagine what that might mean.

    Short of shooting them on sight or sinking the boats at sea with them on board I don’t see how that is possible.

  84. paul burns

    At this early stage I wouldn’t go so far as to say Labor to win, but they’re in with a bloody good chance, if things go relatively smoothly between now and the election. Which is better than being cactus.

  85. Lefty E

    Which is better than being cactus.

    More word.

  86. Jumpy

    Chris @76
    Oops, this ALP Caucus (the determinants of PMs these days) thing is confusing, I thought ministers had a say.
    Do you have a list of ” the 102 ” that voted?

    I found, just now, a fun interactive from news.com ( 2 years old) about ALP factions.
    After clicking start the Cabinet, Faction and Connections buttons arrange and clicking on the Face give details too.

  87. Sam

    Labor to win with Rudd as leader.

    Wanna bet?

    Wait till the Opposition rolls out the ads with one Labor Cabinet minster after another telling the world what a duplicitous turd Rudd is.

  88. Jumpy

    OOh, forgot to add, Plibersek apparently cried when Rudd got knifed.
    Perhaps for reasons Paul noted @74.

  89. Lefty E

    Wait till the Opposition rolls out the ads with one Labor Cabinet minster after another telling the world what a duplicitous turd Rudd is.

    Fingers crossed! A series of unpopulaar ministers whinging about him will be just the ticket. Makes him the anti-Abbot, and the anti-faceless candidate.

    I reckon itlll take 2 weeks for the LNP to realise their holding ace high there. With any luck, a bit longer.

    [Wanna bet?]

    Already made one, but thanks. I got $50 on a Rudd win.

  90. Lefty E

    Tanya Plibersek’s position in 2010, 2012 and certainly earlier this year was to support the leader,

    Good for her. Thats a defensible position, and she can now apply it consistently to Rudd. She will gain respect for it.

    It aint rocket science, punters.

  91. Liz

    That’s a fascinating piece of trivia, Paul. And you’re right Keating did have a dog called Rueben. I wonder if Gillard named her’s in honour of him?

    Russell, I guess I think that it’s difficult to work out people’s motivations in some cases. They can be very mixed as well. One can see Shorten as traitorous, or trying to do the right thing by the Party, or trying to ensure he has some hope of being PM one day. Probably it’s a mixture of all three. I think it’s difficult to make those judgements and I’m glad I don’t have to.

  92. Sam

    I got $50 on a Rudd win.

    Then you are a mug punter. You should always bet with your head, not your heart.

    Latest Centrebet odds

    Coalition 1.13
    ALP 5.25

  93. Liz

    And it’s a pity that Rudd never took the same position as Plibersek.

  94. Lefty E

    Then you are a mug punter. You should always bet with your head, not your heart.

    No , Im an active, financial members of the Optimists. You can thank me later. But dont let me stop you, pony up on Abbott then!

    [And it’s a pity that Rudd never took the same position as Plibersek.]

    Yes, or Gillard.

  95. Tim Macknay

    Latest Centrebet odds

    Coalition 1.13
    ALP 5.25

    Sam, the odds follow the polls. So if the polls change, the odds will change as well.

    On the other hand, if they don’t…

  96. Lefty E

    The odds have already narrowed since yesterday.

    Smart money sees the trend. Mugs follow the fact.

  97. mindy

    Kristina Keneally has said that although she lives in what is now Peter Garrett’s seat she will not be contesting it as the candidate. I think that is a shame actually.

    As for Shorten, Wong, etc well they turned out to be politicians and I really can’t be surprised at that.

  98. Tim Macknay

    Rupert Murdoch’s tweet -

    Australian public now totally disgusted with Labor Party wrecking country with it’s sordid intrigues. Now for a quick election.

    The apostrophe is his.

  99. Liz

    Yes, but Gillard was made to pay and pay. Rudd was rewarded for being a long term wrecker. Great if he manages to win, or even ensure the Coalition don’t control the Senate. But, please don’t pretend we wouldn’t be in this position if Rudd hadn’t worked so hard to wreck the government. Compare and contrast with Gillard. Gracious, generous and walked off the stage with her head held high.

    Rudd couldn’t even give her the respect of referring to her as PM Gillard last night, unlike Wong this morning. He has no class.

  100. Ronson Dalby

    Sam @87, I think if the Liberals roll out those ads (and they will – they won’t be able to help themselves), it will have the opposite effect to the one they want.

    I don’t know one person who isn’t sick of negativity in politics – both sides.

    A change of PM, for whatever reason, will give many a feeling of a fresh start. Negative ads will be just that negative, but for the Liberals.

  101. Helen

    GregM, Open#Spill thread #164

    I must express my bias. I think that she has been an excellent Prime Minister and with the passing of time this will be recognised, as she is seen as implementing an impressive reform program while managing a hung parliament and while being undermined all the way by a vengeful sociopath.

    Absolutely correct, with some failures e.g. asylum seekers, single mothers and uni funding, but look at giants like Whitlam and Keating and they left messes everywhere. Doesn’t mean I’m excusing those things but historically JG should be compared to other real life PMs, not some platonic ideal of a PM.

  102. Jumpy

    Lefty E

    I got $50 on a Rudd win

    .

    But dont let me stop you, pony up on Abbott then!

    If your giving me odds of 50 of yours to 1 of mine on Abbott to win the next election, I’ll risk $1000.
    What say you?

  103. Chris

    I reckon itlll take 2 weeks for the LNP to realise their holding ace high there. With any luck, a bit longer.

    It took them about an hour. There was already one up on YouTube. Yes, the LNP have finally discovered that internety thing.

    I’m under no illusions that the ALP will win the next election. In a way it would be bad for the ALP to just scrape through because they wouldn’t have to face the fact that rolling a first term PM is a very very bad idea. It will reinforce the idea that first term PMs need to be continously looking over their shoulder and can’t tackle contentious policies because if their poll numbers drop too much they’ll get replaced. Who is ever going to be willing to tackle the “big” problems in that sort of environment? Much better to go back to the convention of letting the PM have 2-3 terms.

    But, please don’t pretend we wouldn’t be in this position if Rudd hadn’t worked so hard to wreck the government.

    There’s always going to be a lot of what-ifs though. If Gillard hadn’t rolled Rudd then the ALP may well have had majority government this term and would have avoided a lot of the difficulty in the first place.

  104. faustusnotes

    Lefty E, you still got seats on that train? I want to take a ride on the Optimism Train right to the last stop, Policy Wasteland.

    I’m optimistic that Rudd can win the election, but it will be a second rate policy machine he is running. Might as well put Peter Hartcher in the job, because Rudd makes his politics according to polls and not principles. But at least it will keep Abbott out.

    If Rudd has any sense the first thing he will do once he’s put Abbott away is bring in some new and very nasty media laws to force through a bit of diversification and competition. He won’t of course – he’ll suck up to them like he always has.

    What a sad choice, between two conservative christians, one with lunatic policies and the other with none.

  105. Lefty E

    I say no, because you seem unduly negative for the Optimagasmatron, and furthermore dont seem to understand odds.

    Here’s whats happening: Ive placed $50 on Rudd, who is currrently at 5 to 1.

    By all means, risk your $1000. Someone’s gotta pay my winnings.

  106. Chris

    Compare and contrast with Gillard. Gracious, generous and walked off the stage with her head held high.

    It wasn’t very classy to run a scorched earth policy on the leadership though. Nor forcing a leadership spill early to ensure that Rudd would have to face parliament and a possible confidence motion.

  107. mindy

    She had no option Chris. Now there is no going back. They have made their choice to live or die by and she is well out of it. They only have themselves to blame, especially if Rudd turns around and does exactly what he did before.

    I very much doubt that they would have won a majority with Rudd at the helm. He would have come crashing down if Gillard hadn’t taken over, perhaps in hindsight it is a shame that she didn’t. But still she gave us three good years and I am grateful for that.

  108. Paul Norton

    Jumpy @86,

    That interactive says “Albanese and Plibersek joined forces during their student politics days at UTS”, which is rubbish.

    Albanese did his undergraduate studies and student activism at Sydney University in the early 1980s, while Plibersek did her undergrad studies and student activism at UTS in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and wasn’t a Labor Party member at the time. She later did a Masters Degree at Macquarie, by which time she’d rejoined the ALP.

    Albo’s Sydney University days are far from arcane to anyone who knows anything about the key figures in the Federal ALP. A clanger on this point suggests that the interactive, whilst amusing, is probably not all that reliable.

  109. Lefty E

    It took them about an hour. There was already one up on YouTube. Yes, the LNP have finally discovered that internety thing.

    I think youve misunderstood me Chris. I *hope* they run the carping ads from unpopular ex-ministers campaign. It will remind punters of exactly what theyve hated for the last year or three. I confidently expect Rudd’s popularity to increase as a result. I hope it take at least 2 weeks for the LNP to work out its an own goal.

    Ace high is low hand in poker.

  110. Terangeree

    Liz @ 99:

    Rudd was rewarded for being a long term wrecker.

    As was Abbott.

    As was Fraser for his white-anting of Gorton, McMahon and Snedden.

    As was Whitlam for his white-anting of Calwell.

    Menzies wasn’t exactly as pure as the driven snow in regard to his dealings with Page and Lyons, either.

    Billy Hughes, for that matter, was not known for his loyalty to his colleagues.

    You could probably find wreckers and white-anters in Australian and colonial parliaments dating all the way back to 1822.

  111. Helen

    - Under pressure, Abbott forced to speak in public. Disaster strikes: punters discover he’s a pork chop.

    If everything Gillard ever said and did was spun as a failure by the media (channel 10 described parliament under Gillard as “paralysed” yest even though Gonski had gone through only that bloody day) what makes you think they are going to report Abbott’s failings accurately? It’ll be exactly the same situation in reverse.

  112. Brian

    Terangeree, add to that Rudd white-anting Beazley.

    Maxine McKew says Rudd should concentrate on one policy – jobs. Including the investments and sacrifices that may have to be made.

  113. Brian

    BTW, Shorten has said that he made up his mind to shift after the spill was called at 4.30 pm. Up till that time he was for Gillard.

  114. Jumpy

    OK leftyE what odds will you give me. ( I can up or down my investment to suit you ) Perhaps a %20 donation to LP to officiate the transaction ?

    Paul @ 108
    I didn’t advocate for it’s accuracy. I can say it helps a bit with my understanding of ALP inner workings which is extremely confusing to most outsiders.

  115. akn

    Brian @ 81: I don’t agree. Everyone has had at least one totally dysfunctional yet successful boss whether in the public or private sector. It’s commonplace these days. My feeling is that a lot of people don’t give a damn about interpersonal style so long as the outcomes are successful.

    In reviewing Gillard’s time – the attack on single parents illustrates the limits of trickle down feminism.

  116. Lefty E

    Maybe he realised the gig was up Brian, and went with the strength. 57-45 means 20-plus had moved. Shorten allegedly controls 7.

  117. Liz

    Really, Chris? Rudd challenging her is all her fault? Because she called on the spill when it suited her, which is her prerogative? Well, it worked out pretty well for him. I’m sure Rudd isn’t complaining. He could supported her for the past three years. He could have walked three years ago if that was untenable. How about those options? But no, he wrecked. He pissed and moaned and bitched and leaked to his media mates, until he got what he wanted.

    Terangaree is right. It’s happened often in Oz politics. It’s brutal. But, please don’t start treating Rudd like a hero for being a wrecker.

  118. Sam

    Albanese did his undergraduate studies and student activism at Sydney University in the early 1980s

    I don’t think Albo was all that active in student politics. His activism was in the ALP. He was certainly a warrior on the Left of NSW Young Labor, which in those days was quite a training ground for future careers in the Labor Party including John Faulkner, John Della Bosca, Carl Scully, Michael Lee, John Hatzistergos and plenty more.

  119. Ronson Dalby

    Wow … the removalists are already at The Lodge.

    I would be very surprised (and disappointed) if the new PM moved in before winning the election.

  120. Fran Barlow

    Liz commented on my remark:

    At the expressive level, one may be horrified at the ascent of Abbott, much as when someone’s degenerative disease produces some ugly physical or intellectual manifestation but even if someone devises some way to obscure this, the disease will be no better or less harmful.

    as follows:

    Nice ableism upthread, Fran B. Abbott as someone with a disfiguring, degenerative disease.

    I described Abbott not as someone with a disfiguring, degenerative disease, but by analogy as one of the signs that such a disease obtained, in this case, with Australian politics.

    I suggest you do some reading. Perhaps Carly Findlay’s blog about how this sort of language is so damaging to people. She has a disease which causes an “ugly…physical manifestation”. I doubt that she’d be happy being used as an analogy for Abbott.

    While I believe certainly believe that people suffering from some disease ought not to have its manifestations adduced against them it seems to me that there is little point in trying to deny that such things are unsightly. How we respond to these things is far more germane. This metaphoric passage really aimed at highlighting the malaise that produced the politics we have — which is ugly and unsightly.

    I’m genuinely sorry if Carly Findlay imagines I’m thinking of her when I am describing Abbott or seeking to trade on her challenges (or those of any sufferer from disease) to make a broader point about politics. Austrlia’s politics is however, seriously ill, and if Abbott does win it will affirm how dreadful the disease has become. This man will be the face and voice of the country.

    Alternatively, if, improbably, Rudd wins it will merely show a different form of ugliness. That has nothing at all to do with the need to include people with challenges of one kind or another in social and political life.

  121. Fran Barlow

    BTW, Shorten has said that he made up his mind to shift after the spill was called at 4.30 pm. Up till that time he was for Gillard.

    Apparently he had shifted by mid-morning, according to a friend of mine who texted me at 11.36AM from Canberra.

  122. Russell

    Did anyone else see what I saw last night?

    I was with a fairly large group of males, and I’ve never read a book of feminist theory (sorry Cristy), but I was struck by something really unpleasant when the result was announced. There was a sort of gleeful “she’s gone”, which I thought had a slight sexual element to it: ‘she’s been done over’.

    If I picked it up, then a lot of women would have picked it up, and that could translate to a bit of animus for men in blue ties, including Rudd. Add to that the fact that Julia made a very good exit, and that the media will suddenly stop their campaign against her … and we might see over the next few weeks a sort of resentment towards all who eliminated her.

    I had been thinking of a Green 1, ALP 2 vote, but I’m feeling checkmated by the ALP into an informal vote: Greens 1, and nothing else. The ALP is an abject mess led by a sociopath who has a proven record of being unable to run a cabinet. “Power at any price” as an election slogan doesn’t inspire me.

  123. Jumpy

    PM Rudd speaks now in Parliament.
    (SKY 648 A-PAC)

  124. jules

    As to what’s next, what are the odds – real odds – of anyone calling the coalition on its non stop line of bullshit.

    I’d say not very good.

    Hopefully the crap last night will allow some clear air to examine what the opposition is really gonna do. last night someone from the coalition said we know what they’re gonna do? is that true? The 100 IPA policies? Just ending the carbon “tax”.

    BTW Democracy is dysfunctional in this country – exhibit one: The NSW govt policy wrt changing land access right for mining exploration following a statewide grass roots rejection of CSG. Its a specific anti democratic move following a near unanimous rejection of that form of mining by the NSW population. What Fran B says way back is true to a point.

  125. Chris

    Terangaree is right. It’s happened often in Oz politics. It’s brutal. But, please don’t start treating Rudd like a hero for being a wrecker.

    I don’t think Rudd is a hero. But neither was Gillard an innocent bystander in all of this. Politics is brutal and Gillard played hardball and very effectively against Rudd. As she did against Wilkie which I didn’t like at all and I think lack of pokie reform is one of the biggest failures of her time as PM.

    Unfortunately she was unable to do work effectively against Abbott doing a much worse job than Rudd. And that’s the crux of the matter – in the end it doesn’t matter how effective a negotiater or legislator you may be, if you can’t get the support of the public you’re out – either pushed out by your colleagues or at the next election. If Rudd wasn’t around she would have been replaced by someone else.

  126. Moz

    Jules, there’s also the LNP in Queensland coming in then abruptly slashing the public service after repeating the “public service has nothing to fear” and the “no asset sales without an election on the issue” has also turned out to be non-core.

    Like Clarke and Dawes said last week “I can’t vote for who I want, I have to vote for whoever the parties put up”.

  127. Alison

    They will tear him down, too, gimme Julia Gillard any time – media more dysfunctional than the politicians, witness ABC coverage last pm. Hysterical jackasses, one and all.

  128. Chris

    Did anyone else see what I saw last night?

    I was around a bunch of mostly male geeky/nerdy types that would generally vote Green/ALP. And the response was pretty much a universal “who cares/won’t make a difference”.

  129. Liz

    Fran B, intent isn’t magic. I’m sure you don’t mean to hurt or denigrate people with a visual disability, at all. But, the language you use does precisely that. So, what’s more important, your use of language (and I’m sure you could find another set of words that could describe what you want), or the ableism you’re unwittingly indulging in, which hurts people in a real way? And not just their feelings, but their capacity to live full and equal lives.

  130. Terangeree

    Brian at 112:

    Add to that Beazley’s white-anting of Latham and Crean. :)

  131. Alison

    re. Fran

    That description of Abbott is utterly offensive. Try thinking a little more, although…I may ask too much.

  132. Russell

    Liz and Alison – I think you have misread Fran’s comment.

  133. David

    Whitlam had the Greens right: “Those silly bloody Greens who want us to go to war with Indonesia over Papua”.

    He said the same thing to Callwell in 1962 over what was then Netherlands New Guinea: War is the only thing that could get Indonesia to change its views.

  134. paul of albury

    Russell @122, I’d have to agree with your first part, but misogynist jeering at Gillard is unfortunately hardly a surprise. The sort of people who get titillation and self validation out of Pickering’s cartoons and the like were always going to rejoice in her downfall whether last night or after the election.

  135. Sam

    The odds have already narrowed since yesterday.

    The coalition’s odds have shortened (don’t pardon the pun) today from $1.20 to $1.14.

  136. Paul Norton

    Sam @118:

    I don’t think Albo was all that active in student politics.

    Well he ran for Sydney Uni SRC President on the ALP Club ticket in 1983. I know because I was his scrutineer. He also got himself suspended from university that year over his role in the occupation in defence of the Political Economy course (the suspension was, I think, repealed).

  137. mindy

    Heh, I was going to say Sam, don’t argue student politics of that era with Paul Norton, he was there.

  138. Katz

    H of R odds. Pffft.

    Senate disposition is the only game in town.

  139. Sam

    I’m defining active in student politics in that era to be active in AUS, Gillard style (or even Norton style).

  140. Paul Norton

    In 1983 the students of Sydney University, in their wisdom, elected Belinda Neal as SRC President. It would be fun to try to find a person who was a Sydney Uni student at the time who will now admit to having voted for her.

  141. Sam

    Senate disposition is the only game in town

    Tell that to all those Labor hacks who are going to lose their seats in the Reps.

  142. Sam

    In 1983 the students of Sydney University, in their wisdom, elected Belinda Neal as SRC President.

    If Albo ran on the ALP ticket, what did Neal run on? Let me guess: “Centre Unity” or some other euphemism for the Grouper/Liberal alliances of the time (see Costello, P, Monash University).

  143. Ootz

    Heh, without me having had prior contact, Kevin just now sent me an email.

    (My first name),

    In recent years, politics has failed the Australian people. There has just been too much negativity all round. There’s been an erosion of trust.

    Negative personal politics has done much to bring dishonour to our parliament but done nothing to address the urgent challenges facing our country, our communities and our families.

    In fact it has been holding our country back.

    This must stop, and with all my heart that is the purpose that I intend to pursue as Prime Minister.

    I want to acknowledge the achievements of my predecessor, Julia Gillard. She is a woman of extraordinary intelligence, of great strength and energy. She has achieved much under the difficult circumstances of minority government.

    Every effort I have in my being will be dedicated to uniting the Australian Labor Party. No retributions, no pay backs, none of that stuff. It is pointless, it is old politics.

    Together, we can win and defend all that Labor has achieved in the past six years. Join the campaign today or click here to donate.

    Thanks,

    Kevin

    He is in campaign mode for sure, good on him. Just not sure where he got my email address from.

  144. Katz

    The NSA?

  145. mindy

    I have seen other people on Twitter asking that too Ootz. PRISM?

  146. Ronson Dalby

    Ootz @ 143,

    Local party offices, Liberal and Labor, have very extensive data bases.

  147. akn

    Thanks for that Ootz. It’s got the right tone and is right down the middle playing the uniting leader.

  148. Tim Macknay

    Ootz @143, did the subject line say “let’s continue the fight”?

  149. Tim Macknay

    I have seen other people on Twitter asking that too Ootz. PRISM?

    Maybe Julian Assange gave it to him.

  150. Chris

    Local party offices, Liberal and Labor, have very extensive data bases.

    Yea if you’ve ever email an MP it’s likely your email address will be permanently stored in their database just for times like this. You can also end up accidentally sharing your email address through facebook.

  151. verity

    Tune in to Question time now. Rudd has effectively neutralised Abbott in the first 2 minutes.

  152. Ootz

    Tim @148, yep that is the subject line.

  153. Paul Norton

    Sam @142, that’s right. Neal ran on the Centre Unity ticket. Centre Unity was bona fide Labor Right rather than a Liberal/Grouper alliance, but at times it was difficult to tell the difference. Centre Unity in Victoria took their ideological cue from Frank Knopfelmacher, and in NSW from Laurie Short and John Ducker, which meant that they framed student politics in Cold War terms, saw the entire Left as the totalitarian communist “present danger” or dupes thereof, and regarded defeating the Left as a higher priority than progressing any positive Labor or social democratic concerns. There was an article by Michael Danby in the AUS national newspaper in 1978 that outlined this perspective with admirable lucidity.

  154. faustusnotes

    Anyone want to place bets on when in the last couple of days/weeks/months/years Rudd penned that email to Ootz?

    For me the only odds of interest are the odds that the little squibber will ditch the carbon price.

  155. akn

    Rudd and his executive are slaughtering the Coalition on the floor right now.

  156. Jumpy

    Rudd has effectively neutralised Abbott in the first 2 minutes.

    Yep, QT is a joke.
    Gillard never answered any questions either, just went straight to the scripted talking points.
    A waste of time.

  157. Justin

    He won’t ‘ditch’ the carbon price, but he probably will ditch the fixed price.

  158. alfred venison

    paul norton
    our paths may have crossed. i stamped albanese’s books at the economics faculty library in the 80s, helped him locate back copies of journals, made his closed reserve bookings. always very nice to the library staff, open & egalitarian from the start, no snooty master/servant thing like some of the college people. never tried to get us to give him someone else’s reservation. and carmel tebbutt too. talking among ourselves in the back room we thought they were ambitious, smart and would go places. i reminisced about those days and those people with one of my library fellow workers back from london before christmas. carmel tebbutt, deputy premier, i said, of course, he replied. i remember the political economy struggle, so unfair as the courses were very popular. i liked reading their set texts during the summer break. used to stop by and have a chat with the great hall front lawn occupiers at their caravan on my way home. those were the days. -a.v.

  159. Paul Norton

    a.v., our paths wouldn’t have crossed as I never a student at Sydney Uni. I was just extending Albo some comradely solidarity in the election (as you do).

  160. paul burns

    Abbott slaughtered by Rudd on credit rating. And carbon pricing and … OMG! everything! I’m getting high just watching it.

  161. Fran Barlow

    Liz:

    I’m sure you don’t mean to hurt or denigrate people with a visual disability, at all. But, the language you use does precisely that.

    I agree with your paradigm. I am quite careful in my use of language to avoid trading on cultural and institutional inequities, including of course in areas such as disability. I’ve made the very argument you have about the distinctione between intent and the meaning of terms in their cultural context. I’m not seeing however, that this example of my language does hurt or ‘denigrate’* people.

    * note: some object to this term on the basis of its assumption that blackness is an inferior condition.

    re: your #72

    There are all kinds of ways for a state to fail. Some are gross in that one can see a serious cost in premature mortality, the breakdown in basic services, loss of integrity in the administration of the law and so forth. Yet it seem to me that if a polity that is nominally ‘democratic’ surrenders executive government to a narrow clique of people and the wider mass become for the most part merely passive and bemused bystanders, then the state has clearly failed one of its core standards.

    In a fairly healthy polity, public policy would be front and centre and who was apparently in charge would be an entirely secondary question. People would by and large know when they were being manipulated, and not fall for the same old vacuous and reactionary claptrap. There wouldbe a diverse mediascape with a vigorous debate about the way forward. The fact that both parties have configured themselves to trade on vacuous and reactionary claptrap shows that the polity is at best a caricature of democracy.

  162. Sam

    there was an article by Michael Danby

    Michael Danby. What a champ. Just knowing he is in the Parilament makes me proud to be Australian.

  163. Justin

    As I recall Gillard regularly slaughtered Abbott in QT. It’s just that the media reported the chaos caused by constant Oppn no confidence motions etc as if it reflected badly on both parties.

    What will be interesting is how the media report on QT tonight. I fully expect lots of ‘spring in their step’ comments and a clip of Rudd giving a good answer.

    This is precisely why Rudd had to be put back in for the ALP to have a chance. The media are not just players now, they are controllers of the message.

  164. Chris

    Yep, QT is a joke.
    Gillard never answered any questions either, just went straight to the scripted talking points.
    A waste of time.

    I agree, but I think its highly unlikely Abbott would change anything if elected. They all complain about it when in opposition and then take advantage of it when in government.

  165. Jumpy

    Chris

    I agree, but I think its highly unlikely Abbott would change anything if elected. They all complain about it when in opposition and then take advantage of it when in government.

    Yes, as I said the other day, be prepared to say and hear ” Abbott killed em
    in QT today.
    It’s terrible and an independent committee needs to publicly advise on changes.

  166. Jumpy

    Steven Smith Goorn.
    How many is that now?

  167. Sam

    This comment is on the Age web site, in response Anne Summers’ article about how Gillard was done in because she is a woman, and shame on the female ministers, none of whom resigned in sisterly solidarity.

    What’s happened in the past 24 hours is shocking, horrible, unthinkable and tragic. I didn’t think I would see it in my lifetime.

    I’m writing, of course, about Roger Federer losing in the 2nd round at Wimbledon.

  168. Chris

    It’s terrible and an independent committee needs to publicly advise on changes.

    IIRC that has already essentially been done – it was (i think) a bipartisan report that came out of the some long serving MPs from the Howard/Rudd timeframe. But no government ever wants to implement them no matter what they may have said when in opposition because it would give up an advantage. I think there was some effort made during the last term thanks to the independents insisting on it, but its difficult to enforce.

    I think a good start would be an independent speaker – say someone who would have to be appointed my 2/3 or even an 80% majority to much better ensure independence. And perhaps even NOT an MP – say ex judges – appointed for just one term of parliament. Only then would it be possible to force people to address the questions asked.

  169. Adrien

    What next? Two words: Tony. Abbott. And may the whole lot of’em rot in Hades.

  170. Peter Murphy

    Jumpy@166: there’s a whole list of retiring MPs and Senators at the bottom of the page. Quite a few.

  171. Linda

    faustusnotes@30: [redacted][I agree Linda and I have deleted it]

    Thank you.

    Paul Burns @ 160 “Abbott slaughtered by Rudd on credit rating. And carbon pricing and … OMG! everything! I’m getting high just watching it.”

    He did do very well but he spoke passionately of Julia Gillard’s achievements as though they were his own.

  172. Katz

    No no-confidence motion?

    Is Abbott feeling nervous?

  173. Jumpy

    Chris
    If you could find that report and a pen small comment that would be a worthy guest post.
    I will endeavour to find it and any help would be appreciated. That’s why i said ” publicly advise on changes “, publicly being the important thing that could influence change. At present the standing orders favour the Government of the day, that’s bad, the only benefit should be the numbers given on each vote.
    If the Indies made any changes I haven’t noticed a positive result.
    I thought Harry Jenkins was good but unable to perform as he wished due to constrains. Perhaps Harry in retirement could unleash some suggestions.
    I have an opinion of Anna Burkes performance but am reliably informed that it’s not publishable, it’s not positive.
    Your ” not MP ” idea would need a referendum, section 35.

  174. mindy

    @Linda – the erasure of Gillard begins.

  175. Sam

    He did do very well but he spoke passionately of Julia Gillard’s achievements as though they were his own … @Linda – the erasure of Gillard begins.

    Would you have preferred that he ignore them or renounce them?

  176. FDB

    I missed the spill entirely, for the following reasons:

    i) Spent the early part of my day off uprooting weeds and remnant vegetables.

    ii) Spent the arvo and evening watching The Walking Dead.

    Make of these what you will.

  177. Chris

    Jumpy @ 173 – I had a quick google, but unfortunately could not find it. I think it was probably released soon after the 2007 election but could be wrong about the dates. I think at least either the ALP or Lib rep was an ex-speaker. I heard about it on ABC radio where both of them were interviewed about it at the same time so there might be some details about it on the ABC website (but I couldn’t find it easily).

    Re: the independents – there is more direction from the speaker regarding addressing the question than they used to do in previous parliaments. But its hard to enforce and often speakers are not very enthusiastic about doing so anyway.

  178. Peter Murphy

    @Linda – the erasure of Gillard begins.

    Yes, Mindy. Rudd’s going to make Julia Gillard an unperson, woo hoo! Shorten’s going to play along, or he’s going to be sent to the labor camps at Werribee. The Hansards for 2010 to 2013 is going to go straight down the memory slit, once someone gets their hands on a big enough pair of scissors.

  179. Linda

    Mindy@174 “@Linda – the erasure of Gillard begins.”

    Indeed. This is what Dale Spender wrote about in the 1970s. Now we are seeing the process, live.

    Sam @ 175 “Would you have preferred that he ignore them or renounce them?”

    No. I would have preferred he attribute them.

  180. Tim Macknay

    Spent the arvo and evening watching The Walking Dead.

    Any good?

  181. Terry

    Although the issue has by now probably been covered, I have to back up Norto @ 106 on Albanese and Plibersek. Albanese headed the ALP Club (Labor left) in the mid-1980s and was very much its dominant figure. At that time, the Labor Right ran Centre Unity, whose alumni included Belinda Neal, John Della Bosca, Reba Meagher, Joe Tripodi and other subsequent stellar achievers (in fairness, some joined Centre Unity on the issue of Israel/Palestine, but there was a certain style learnt there that has not subsequently served the ALP well).

    Tanya Plibersek studied at UTS in the early 1990s, and was not particularly active in student politics, or at least not party politics, at that time. She came to prominence when supported by Albo and other key NSW Labor Left figures for the candidacy of Sydney when Peter Baldwin retired. A strong field ran for that seat, including Peter Botsman, but there was a view that a woman should get that seat, and I think it would be subsequently agreed that Tanya was a good choice.

  182. Jumpy

    New Zealand politics is like Bizarro Australia where the ones in power are reversed but the traits are the same.
    HERE.
    The reply is part 2 ( top left )
    Just yesterday in fact, wow.

  183. Jacques de Molay

    FDB @ 176,

    ii) Spent the arvo and evening watching The Walking Dead.

    Make of these what you will.

    A fine choice in TV viewing habits?

  184. Mindy

    Oooh FDB is it a sign? The Walking Dead – could mean Rudd, could mean Gillard. Spooky. Or not.

  185. Katz

    I think that FDB’s uprooting of weeds and remnant vegetables is more talismanic than viewing zombies.

  186. FDB

    It’s a Rorschach test Mindy.

    There are no wrong answers.

    Katz comes close to my own interpretation though:

    The weeds and neglected remnants of summer’s harvest are being disposed of or composted, depending on their value to the vegetable patch Moving Forward.

    The Walking Dead refers to the ALP as a whole. If you’ve seen the series, you’ll know that female zombies are accorded precisely the same level of respect as males, which is where this analogy obviously falls down.

  187. FDB

    Tim – it’s pretty good.

    It’s a strongly contested genre, and I think they get the balance pretty much right between human interest and zombie slaughter, which most don’t.

  188. Mindy

    I haven’t yet, but everyone is talking about it so obviously I should.

  189. Liz

    Gillard slaughtered Abbott day in, day out in question time. Apparently the blokes here never noticed or have forgotten. Erasure, indeed. But, as the good Dr. Pav has sometimes pointed out there is an inability to actually pay attention to what women say. It’s just as common here as anywhere else.

    You can sneer Sam and Peter Murphy. But, you may have noticed that many progressive women are sad, angry and disgusted by this. You may not think this matters, which is a bit sad.

  190. Justin

    Before people get too upset with ‘the erasure’, please recall Gillard did exactly the same thing to Rudd. To the extent that she didn’t/couldn’t run on the fantastic economic management of Rudd-Swan, even though she still had Swan.

    At least Rudd is celebrating the ALP’s achievements. And so far getting more attention paid to them than Gillard could.

  191. akn

    Liz @ 188 re Gillard slaughtering the opposition day in and day out. No she didn’t. She came across as an administrator using little words for little people to explain her incomprehensible policy inconsistency. She was bunkum.

  192. Liz

    As I said, akn. Some men are incapable of hearing women. She was always great in question time.

    It might be nice just to pause and remember it was her last day as a politician. She wasn’t perfect, but she did some very good things.

  193. Fran Barlow

    Liz:

    It might be nice just to pause and remember it was her last day as a politician. She wasn’t perfect, but she did some very good things.

    Regrettably, the unworthy things she did (asylum seeker policy, cut of benefits to single mothers; income management; low UB provision;) were especially nasty. Some were craven or very foolish — her opposition to same sex marriage, the MRRT, the prolonged occupation of Afghanistan, her policy on defence acquisitions, surplus fetishism …

  194. faustusnotes

    Fran, how many times must we go over the issue? The MRRT designed by Rudd was a disaster which, if in place now, would see our taxes being transferred to mining companies. Do you support such insane policy? What about DisabilityCare Australia, and most especially, the carbon price that Rudd squibbed? “Moral challenge of a generation” my fat nerdy arse.

  195. Fran Barlow

    Fran, how many times must we go over the issue? The MRRT designed by Rudd was a disaster

    Gillard designed the MRRT so as to shut down the mining industry camapign against R**d’s proposed RSPT. I didn’t much like his model either, and thought it tactically silly to try forcing it through only a few months before the polls. He ought to have said that he wanted ‘proper consultation’ which would obviously not be possible pre-election and left it at that. I’d have favoured a different model.

    If you have read anything I’ve written on R**d, you will know that I’m not counted amongst his admirers, so I’m unsure why you’d be asking me of all folk to be his advocate. I hated whate he did over carbon pricing, and asylum seekers. I hated it that he spat on the BER and HIP. I thought him a most unsatisfactory leader — and I thought that before I became aware that he was a most unpleasant person to have as a manager. I opposed replacing Gillard with him and am scandalised that this has occurred.

  196. Liz

    Fran, everyone had their platonic ideal of a PM. Someone who’ll do exactly what you want them to. That person doesn’t exist. I’m fully aware of Gillard’s policy failures and i’m so not interested in discussing rhem with you. So try having some sensitivity and celebrate the good.

  197. Jacques de Molay

    Saw on the news ALP HQ in SA had it’s windows graffitied overnight with something like “Are you happy now Kevin?”

  198. Katz

    I believe his answer would be, “Yes.”

  199. Peter Murphy

    You can sneer Sam and Peter Murphy. But, you may have noticed that many progressive women are sad, angry and disgusted by this.

    I have noticed that. I have also noticed a lot of women (progressive or not) are happy that Rudd won last night, including my wife.

    As I said upthread: “I think Gillard will go down in history as a better PM than Whitlam. But as Greg Jericho argues: she never won the people.” Don’t take my sneer at her: she did a fine job. Never the less, I was happy when she lost the challenge. We were looking at a LNP Senate majority, which would have wiped her legacy. Now that’s far less likely with Rudd back as PM.

    I reckon we’re now looking at a narrow defeat for the ALP, with Albanese or Bowen or Wong or Shorten taking the reins after the election, but with the Senate stays in ALP/Greens hands. I prefer that to Gillard staying and leading the government to some clusterfuck ALP-LNP 40-60 or 43-57 2PP result, with the Senate having a Liberal-National majority for at least two terms.

    Do you really want that, Liz? I don’t.

  200. Bernice

    Well that was horrible.

    You know the last time I saw the fine fine people of this wide brown land trash an individual with so much venom was Lindy Chamberlain. You know, that crazy religo you all knew had killed her baby, you could tell from the way her left eye twitched, or was it because she didn’t cry enough, or had a weird haircut? Who cares, we gave her a good going over.

    Rudd as the changed man routine isn’t off to a great start – sending the weekend looking at the budgetary position – seems a bit unnecessary if you’re maybe two or three weeks away from the writs being issued, sounds more like dithering to me.

    As Peter Hartcher commented (and he is not someone I can recall ever having agreed with) Rudd now has to move from martyr to saviour. Can’t say I’m seeing much more than a few rhetorical flourishes and just a hint of desperation so far.

    And I’m not so sure that people’s indignation about Rudd’s removal in 2010 will translate into real support. I’ll happily donate $500 to Medecins du Frontiers if the ALP is within 7 seats of the Coalition tally after the coming election. Someone make a note.

  201. Fran Barlow

    Medecins du {Sans} Frontiers … (without borders, not of borders, and it would be ‘des’ anyway if it were)

    {/usage note}

  202. Chris

    Fran @ 201 – wow I’m impressed. Language corrections in multiple languages :-)

    So does anyone know why the shredders are working overtime in ex-ministers offices – whilst I can understand that happens when governments change – what’s up with shredding documents just because the leader changed? Or is it just another aspect of the Gillard scorched earth policy?

  203. Brian

    Liz is right @ 189:

    Gillard slaughtered Abbott day in, day out in question time. … as the good Dr. Pav has sometimes pointed out there is an inability to actually pay attention to what women say.

    The ABC would make the story out of the questions the LNP asked. Today they gave Rudd’s answer as well. They seldom managed that with Gillard.

    Back in the 1980s one of my senior staff, a woman, reported that when she made a suggestion at a meeting she was often ignored. Then a bit later a male would say the same thing. The meeting immediately paid attention.

    Also at times when they did take up her suggestion it was wrongly attributed in the minutes to a male who had spoken second and supported her.

  204. Brian

    Chris @ 168, I think there was a ‘new paradigm’ hammered out with the indies and the LNP at the beginning of this parliament. Alex Somlay in his valedictory speech told the tale of his mother coming down to hear his maiden speech and the Coalition gave him a question to ask the then PM.

    Later he asked his mum what she thought. She gave him a tongue lashing and told him never to be rude and disrespectful to the prime minister ever again. He said he took his mum’s advice and was never named, expelled or asked to retract. His parents were Hungarian ‘reffos’, I believe.

    Chris, Peter Slipper said today he introduced some changes and indeed he tried to get pollies to answer the questions. The effect of this was for the LNP to ask very narrow questions and then constantly leap to their feet with points of order. Gillard in particular was interrupted every 15 seconds.

    Jumpy above doesn’t like Anna Burke, but she’s the best yet at keeping the whole thing in some sort of shape. Jenkins relied on goodwill and it didn’t work.

  205. silkworm

    Morgan Poll taken straight after Rudd’s restoration has Labor at 49.5% (up 5%) on 2PP.

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/morgan-poll-shows-big-swing-to-alp-after-rudd-returned-as-leader/

  206. Brian

    On election timing Rudd made clear that it wouldn’t be 14 September. Clashes with Yom Kippur and there’s a G20 just before that time. Laura Tingle thinks it might be in October and parliament may be recalled to pass more legislation to change carbon pricing and such.

  207. Brian

    On asylum seekers, Rudd said that the way to do policy was to consult people who might know something about it, like the Immigration Dept, ASIO, the Navy etc, rather than adopt silly slogans.

    It’s possible, I think, that he won’t take a policy to the election, just a policy to have a policy, as the LNP is doing in many areas.

  208. Brian

    Much of this thread has been looking back rather than forward. On the treatment of Gillard, I don’t think there’s been a link to Anne Summers’ searing blast.

    I’ve thought for some time that Gillard has been subject to mass bullying, not just by the press. I don’t agree with Gillard that her PMship has made it easier for other women to follow. I think the reverse.

    Blaming the victim is also a common practice.

    On balance Gillard got it right when she said gender has been part of the story.

    As to treachery, as Tangaree pointed out above, that has been part of the landscape for a long time. In the end it’s justified, or not, by the outcome in terms of the state of the party and what happens to the nation. That’s why I said above that what Rudd did can’t be forgiven, but only accepted – in a less than perfect world.

  209. Paul Norton

    Brian @208, I think that Anne Summers is, like Celeborn in LOTR, speaking in the trouble of her heart when she accuses the nine women ministers of “treachery” and lack of “sisterly solidarity” because they haven’t resigned en masse in reaction to Rudd’s return. It is far from obvious that such a step would benefit women or feminism. Also, just last year Anne Summers wrote a biographical feature article on Tanya Plibersek for the SMH Good Weekend. She should know that Plibersek (who as I’ve written above would have voted for Gillard) would have more worthy motives for remaining in Cabinet.

  210. Linda

    Bernice@200 “You know the last time I saw the fine fine people of this wide brown land trash an individual with so much venom was Lindy Chamberlain. You know, that crazy religo you all knew had killed her baby, you could tell from the way her left eye twitched, or was it because she didn’t cry enough, or had a weird haircut? Who cares, we gave her a good going over.”

    That thought has crossed my mind a couple of times over the last three years, too. Both are deviant in ways that unsettle men, especially the not crying part. It was widely reported yesterday that Gillard had shed not a tear. I hope she is right that her work will make it easier for the women who come after her, but I doubt it. The hegemonic misogyny machine has had to crank up intensively over the past three years to remind women of their place lest any of us were entertaining thoughts around seeking powerful positions of any kind.

  211. Paul Norton

    If Labor wins the election under Rudd (which would also almost certainly mean the Greens retaining the balance of power in the Senate) and Abbott is replaced by Turnbull as Liberal leader, we may get something of a bizarre love triangle in Senate dynamics. As was fairly evident in 2008-2010, Rudd does not like the Greens, and this dislike goes back a long way to Queensland politics in the 1990s. Also, Christine Milne has shown herself, and also declared herself, to be amenable to dealing with the non-Labor side, and Turnbull would be far more willing and able to reciprocate than would Mr Rabbit. I can see Rudd losing several important Bills in the Senate that Gillard would have been able to negotiate a way through in some form.

  212. Chris

    Laura Tingle thinks it might be in October and parliament may be recalled to pass more legislation to change carbon pricing and such.

    Doug Cameron was talking about how he’d like to just bring forward the floating price period. Which would allow Rudd to keep the carbon price yet with a much a lower value neutralise much of Abbott’s argument.

    I’ve thought for some time that Gillard has been subject to mass bullying, not just by the press. I don’t agree with Gillard that her PMship has made it easier for other women to follow. I think the reverse.

    I think it will have an effect. I agree there could be some level of discouragement to future candidates, though anyone male or female looking at the level of public scrutiny that politicians get would be put off. But everytime we have a female PM or one in senior public positions it makes it easier because it becomes the norm. As the quote sort of goes – equality isn’t when you have a woman in the job, its when having a woman in the job isn’t seen as any more notable than having a man in the job.

    Perhaps this is a bit too long for a single comment to explore but I think there always will be sexist/racist/*ist attacks whilst that sentiment exists in the broader community. The nature of attacks on women will always be different than those on men because people attempt to exploit the target’s biggest vulnerabilities, which are partially going to be a reflection of societies’ generalisations of men and women. I think Jeremy Fernandez described it quite well re: the verbal abuse which he endured on the bus in saying that the perpetrator may well not have been racist herself, but was using racist language because its was what she thought would be most hurtful to him.

    Paul @ 209 – yes that part of her article made me question how seriously I could take the rest of her article.

  213. alfred venison

    chris
    when ministers resign their commission they or their delegated staff are required to add all official documents created in the course of their activities on the official file. the commonwealth owns everything they create in the course of their official duties. you cannot take anything with you. all papers which are not added to the official record must be destroyed. the incoming minister is entitled to find everything relevant to the portfolio on the official record and should not have to wade through the previous minister’s doodles, diaries, phone lists, first drafts, second drafts, ephemera and facilitative documents. there is no gillard scorched earth happening just normal administrative practice.

    if you want sinister check out the testimony of ian macdonald’s office manager to the nsw icac. he was questioned pointedly if he knowingly destroyed papers which should have gone on the official state file to protect his boss. he says he did not knowingly destroy any official records but they were working in a hurry as macdonald was sacked unexpectedly. the advice of his departmental records manager was only a phone call away. imo, he should have sought advice given he was time constrained and making decisions in haste about whether or not to destroy documents which might have been part of an official state record. -a.v.

  214. alfred venison

    or another sinister. years ago nsw police regularly attended meetings with catholic church officials. notes police officers are known to have made at these meetings were not added to the official record and are now not available to the royal commission into child abuse. police officers are usually scrupulous in uploaded notes they make at any meeting. in this case they didn’t. the royal commissioner wants to know why and so does the police chief. -a.v.

  215. Ronson Dalby

    And I thought certain MPs looked terrible in the Chamber yesterday because they were ‘down in the dumps’ as a result of the spill:

    “Hangovers wearied many. The prime ministerial cellar at The Lodge had been all but drained on Wednesday night. Ms Gillard, former treasurer Wayne Swan and other ministers both doomed and loyal, plus more than a hundred advisers and guests, drowned the sorrows visited upon them and partied into the early hours.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/the-first-day-of-the-rest-of-her-life-20130627-2p09z.html

  216. Katz

    Gillard got it right when she said that it [misogyny] wasn’t everything; it wasn’t nothing; it was something.

    Gillard expressed more succinctly what I have been arguing ever since this issue arose.

    Gillard warns against monocausal analysis. The only reasonable way forward is to argue how much of a “something” misogyny was. Only unreason wins when the role of misogyny is either minimised or exaggerated.

    And Anne Summers’ discussion of the role of misogyny in Australian political life and the consequences of ignoring it, specifically in the context of DLP Senator John Madigan’s anti-choice machinations, is an excellent contribution.

    PS. My iPhone autocorrected machinations to macho nations. Coincidence, or not. You decide.

  217. Peter Murphy
  218. Helen

    Autocorrect can be spooky at times.

  219. Liz

    Paul Murphy, I’m not thrilled to have to choose between two conservative, white Christian men, who I consider both horribly flawed and unpleasant as human beings. Abbott and Rudd have a great deal in common. Here’s an interesting article form Waleed Aly.

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/fresh-fire-but-using-gillards-ammo-20130627-2ozyf.html

    He argues, very well, that Abbott and Rudd are both effective Opposition leaders because their strong suite is destruction. Abbott has been working in an attempt to destroy this Parliament and of course, Gillard.. Rudd destroyed Howard and then destroyed Gillard through three years of destabilisation. Of course, both are excellent at sound-bites. This is what gets called being a ‘good communicator’ these days.

    Aly also makes the point that Rudd’s prime ministership was ‘frantic but barren’. Whereas, Gillard actually achieved a series of strong reforms. Rudd was great at combatting the GFC. But, this was reactive, rather than active.

    Labor seems to want one leader for governing and another for electioneering. I don’t see how this is quite tenable.

    And, yes Rudd doesn’t like the Greens. Bob Brown has said that Rudd wouldn’t meet with him. There’s a lot of fantasy going on here about the left wings wonders that a Rudd PMship will unleash.

  220. Brian

    Linda @ 210, Oakeshott’s valedictory speech was worth listening to, as was Garrett’s. I didn’t hear Stephen Smith’s. Towards the end of Oakeshott’s speech he sent a message of appreciation and support to Gillard before she went into the meeting. You need the tone of voice to fully appreciate it but then there was this:

    LEXI METHERELL: Julia Gillard’s legendary toughness did not waver, even as she delivered her public concession speech last night.

    But in the chamber today for Mr Oakeshott’s valedictory, she crumpled, with this touching revelation.

    ROB OAKESHOTT: About 10 minutes before a party room ballot last night, you know we all get a bit of sense of what’s going on in the joint, I sent the prime minister a text and it was to say her father would be proud of her.

    (Sound of applause)

  221. Paul Norton

    The personal obloquy that Oakeshott and Windsor have had to endure over the past three years is a disgrace, reflecting both the incivility and the political ignorance of those who have propounded it.

  222. Linda

    Thanks, Brian, yes I did see that last night.

  223. Brian

    Liz, I regard Waleed Aly as a light weight on run of the mill politics and a lot of what he says is just silly.

    Here’s a list of Rudd’s achievements, from his farewell speech. In a paragraph towards the end I’ve given a few that he missed.

  224. Brian

    What Katz said @ 216. This is the excerpt from Summers’ speech about the sisterhood:

    Those ministers who honourably resigned on Wednesday night did not include a woman. Not one of the nine women ministers showed any sisterly solidarity. Do these women seriously think that it was OK for our first woman prime minister to be hounded out of office by bullying, duplicity and an outrageous trashing of her reputation? Do they seriously think they are not also contaminated by the crude culture of misogyny that has now enveloped so much of the Labor Party?

    I think Summers would have been happy if some of had showed solidarity. BTW I think Craig Emerson’s resignation from parliament may be a comment on what went on.

    But in terms of the questions, I think that every one of the women would deeply feel that what happened was not OK. And, yes, I think they would feel contaminated, but the misogyny is still more outside the Labor Party than inside it. Also they would see pragmatically that women will be better off if Abbott continues what he’s really good at – leading the Opposition.

    Summers does not appreciate the exigencies of politics in the real world, but what she said in that para has no bearing on the relevance or validity of the rest of the piece.

  225. mindy

    Penny Wong told Julia Gillard before the vote that she would be supporting Rudd for the good of the party. It can’t have been an easy meeting but I think that shows real guts. I think swathes of women resigning would have been an own-goal in terms of representation of women in the Labor party. I agree with much of Summers’ article but I think she got that bit wrong.

  226. Liz

    Brian, I think Aly is being a little harsh. But, Rudd never had the capacity to ensure that major reforms occurred. He squibbed it on the carbon tax. He certainly never attempted any thing of the size of Gonski and the NDIS. There’s also numerous reports of how chaotic and dysfunctional his governing style was. Hopefully, he’s got enough capable people working with him to get stuff done.

  227. Lefty E
  228. David

    I had a look around:

    The Jakarta Post had a report on Rudd announcing a challenge, but nothing subsequent.
    The South China Morning Post had a report on Rudd winning the vote around 21:43.
    (French newspaper) Liberation had a report on Rudd winning the vote around 21:41. They explained that this was just a vote for party leader, what a Governor General was and what Bryce had to do before the Prime Minister changed.
    (Belgian newspaper) De Standaard had coverage on Carlos the Jackal but nothing in Australia. The status of women issue was the imprisonment of Femen protesters in Tunisia and protests during the Tunisian leader’s European visit.
    I checked international news more non-English publications than just those two. They had articles on that Texan politician trying to prevent new legislation governing abortion clinics curtailing the availability of abortion clinics in rural areas. They had articles on the US High Court’s decision on social security for same sex married couples. Nelson Mandela’s health attracted lots of stories.

    The Australian media might like to think that this vote attracted international coverage. I suspect that it was mostly by publications of News Corporation/News Limited.

    Foreigners who followed women’s issues are more likely to have been interested in Gillard’s swearing in as Prime Minister or her speech in response to accusations by the Member for Warringah that she was a misogynist.

  229. Liz

    It’s great Rudd has reversed these cuts.

    Have a look at this disgusting Facebook page created by Rudd supporters. Guys, this is what we get upset about. These fools probably think of themselves as quite progressive.

    http://www.facebook.com/KevinTheStudRudd

  230. Liz

    This data can be interpreted in any number of ways. Certainly, not all of this legislation was good. But, is interesting to see how much Gillard got done and in comparison how little Rudd got done.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2013/jun/28/australia-productive-prime-minister?CMP=twt_gu

  231. Linda

    From the article linked to @ 227 “KEVIN Rudd will reverse some of the cuts to the welfare payments of single parents” Emphasis mine.

  232. Linda

    Liz, that Facebook page is vile.

  233. Tim Macknay

    Have a look at this disgusting Facebook page created by Rudd supporters. Guys, this is what we get upset about. These fools probably think of themselves as quite progressive.

    Ugh, what embarrassing garbage.

  234. Justin

    Anne Summers is also just plain wrong in her claim that nobody would recognise Gillard’s achievements. Quite the opposite has happened (even in the media, now that she’s gone).

    In fact I haven’t heard anyone propose a reason for supporting Rudd in the spill other than his better chances of winning the election. Not one MP has said s/he thinks Rudd makes a better PM.

    I’m glad she wrote it, but I don’t agree with a lot of it. I think she falls into the category of blaming 100% of Gillard’s demise on misogyny, which simply ignores too many own goals from her and her office.

  235. alfred venison

    “ Fran, how many times must we go over the issue? The MRRT designed by Rudd was a disaster which, if in place now, would see our taxes being transferred to mining companies. ” [ faustusnotes @194]

    so you’re an economist are you.

    i do support the introduction of the mrrt. i would, however, have much preferred to see the rspt go through, a tax that would have raised far more money, far more efficiently and far more equitably, than the mrrt.

    [ richard denniss, executive director, the australia institute ]

    yes i’d still support it, but it’s a lot worse than the original proposal–which itself did not emerge in the henry report in a form that could fly. the original design was an inspired piece of public policy but it also needed some tweaking.

    [nicholas gruen, ceo lateral economics, director of the business council of australia's new directions economic reform project from 1997 to 2000]

    with a cadre of aggressive and demanding mining magnates and a handful of mining corporations exerting unparalleled influence over national decision-making, australia is rapidly turning into a plutocracy. any part of mining wealth that can be clawed back for the community is to be welcomed. i therefore support the resource rent tax, inadequate as it is. if nothing else, it is proof that a modicum of democracy remains.

    [clive hamilton, professor of public ethics at charles sturt university]

    the modified mrrt is inferior to the original proposal in all respects

    [ john quiggin, federation fellow in economics and political science, university of queensland ]

    i was very disappointed with the modified mrrt as it is not comprehensive and is not a rigorous resource-rent tax (rrt)

    [ john langmore, professorial fellow in the political science department of the university of melbourne ]

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/07/australias-new-mining-tax

  236. Justin

    On the change to a true ETS straight away, am I missing something or would this not require legislation, which Rudd could not possibly hope to get through the current parliament regardless of how many extra days he makes it sit?

  237. Chris

    David @ 228 – my favourite is ‘Austrian PM Gillard ousted by her party’:

    http://www.gbcghana.com/index.php?id=1.1434387

    Having lived overseas for a couple of years I think that Australians do way overestimate how much people outside of Australia (excluding the expat community) care about what happens here. I was overseas during the early Howard years and saw only a couple of stories hit the mainstream news – one was about East Timor, the other was about a kangaroo that thought it was a dog.

    Liz @ 230 – we’re in pretty poor shape when we’re measuring political effectiveness on number of bills passed per day. I’ve about as much respect for that as managers who attempt to measure programmers on how many lines of code per day they write.

    Much harder to do, but would be interesting to see a comparison of promises made before an election compared to what is actually implemented (whether it require legislation or not).

  238. Fran Barlow

    Liz:

    Fran, everyone had their platonic ideal of a PM. Someone who’ll do exactly what you want them to. That person doesn’t exist.

    Probably not, and I’m certainly not relying on the appearance of such a person. I support The Greens, which, though IMO, measurably the best of the parties in parliament and at worst doing no harm are neither in policy terms or personnel terms my ideal. I accept that the world is never going to be ideal and nor are the people in it going to be flawless. I’m certainly not. Like most people, I’m a work in progress, and I fancy that parties and leaders are too.

    The ALP, IMO, fall qualitatively short, in ethical terms, of where they’d need to be for me to feel OK about supporting them as the least of all harms after The Greens. The asylum seeker and Afghan questions remain for me, dealbreakers, and both Ms Gillard and Mr R__d bear responsibility for that. I cannot avert my eyes and become an accessory to the brutalisation of the vulnerable or the occupation of another country and the propping up of its corrupt officers. If Ms Gillard had moved without delay to withdraw from Afghanistan and to introduce a non-punitive approach to IMAs I’d have swallowed hard and joined those seeing the ALP as flawed but the nonetheless, the lesser harm than the most obvious alternative governing coalition.

    That’s not a particularly high standard and certainly doesn’t amount to an appeal for political purity.

  239. Luxxe

    Nutjob commentary of the week has to have been that from Anne Summers – insisting that senior women should have abandoned the front bench along with Gillard (which would have rendered remote the possibility of another female prime minister).

  240. faustusnotes

    I think that paragraph of Summers’s, offering criticism of those ALP women who didn’t resign, is venomous crap. Who would want to be a woman entering parliament when one is judged by those standards?

    This paragraph is egregiously stupid. We don’t know how the women voted, so some of them may have voted for Gillard but not resigned, yet are lacking sufficient sisterliness for Summers. If they did resign it would be a disaster for the representation of women – perhaps this is something Summers doesn’t care about unless it is women who completely agree with her? But worst of all, Gillard’s end represented the culmination of three years of truly terrible misogyny directed at female politicians – and on the day that she has a chance to write about this, Summers is able to find a whole paragraph to attack other women.

    That is not feminism. It is also an example of what I was redacted for mentioning at 30: this is a woman who wrote a book once and thinks that gives her the right to stand in judgment of a whole generation of young women as they take on tasks – such as senior leadership roles in a heavily male-dominated party – that Summers fought for their right to do. It’s cranky and mean spirited, and fundamentally counter-productive – just like Nickws’s strange idea that having fought for working class people to get to university, the ALP must not be allowed to include university-educated people.

    This has been a sorry week for women’s representation in Australia, but if Anne Summers had her way it would have been much worse.

  241. Liz

    Apparently, Abbott has said that Turnbull practically invented the Internet in Australia. Can I ring him when I have a problem?

    FN, I agree that Summers view that a all the women should have resigned us wrong and not at all feminist.

  242. David

    Fran:
    Re: Afghanistan

    Insurgents hiding amongst civilians for protection has been a tactic since at least Viet Nam and I don’t think that wars can be fought with only the “guilty” getting killed.

    If the insurgents win, you know exactly what they will do to Afghan girls and women, so why do you support them just because they are “anti-U.S.”?

  243. GregM

    If the insurgents win, you know exactly what they will do to Afghan girls and women, so why do you support them just because they are “anti-U.S.”?

    And what they’ll do to the Hazaris on the basis that they belong to the wrong tribe/don’t adhere to the right formula of religious belief.

  244. Tim Macknay

    Justin @236:

    On the change to a true ETS straight away, am I missing something or would this not require legislation, which Rudd could not possibly hope to get through the current parliament regardless of how many extra days he makes it sit?

    I’ve just done a quick scan of the relevant provisions of the Clean Energy Act, and on my (admittedly quick) reading of it, there might be an interpretation which would enable the Government to commence issuing carbon units at auction immediately, and bypass the fixed price period.

    Amendments would first need to be made to the Clean Energy Regulations to introduce an auction reserve price, but this wouldn’t require Parliament.

    Don’t quote me on it, as it’s just based on a very quick scan, and I most certainly could be wrong. I imagine the Australian Government Solicitor is looking at the issue right now.

  245. Linda

    I was also surprised by Anne Summers’ observation but I can understand that she may have written in the heat of the moment. However, in some strands of feminist thought it is not considered unfeminist to call loudly for sisterly solidarity, as this is consistent with feminist goals and principles.

    Also, she has written more than that one seminal book.

  246. Liz

    But, one area that Summers’ article cuts through is her description of how Rudd managed to praise Gilkard solely with the things she did when she was Deputy PM, so praising himself No mention of the NDIS or Gonski. This is the sort of stuff that makes me dislike him as a person. I know he’s popular and he may save the furniture, but it won’t turn him into a person I can support.

  247. Chris

    Apparently, Abbott has said that Turnbull practically invented the Internet in Australia. Can I ring him when I have a problem?

    Well I’ve heard that if he can’t fix your problem it gets escalated to Al Gore :-)

  248. Justin

    Liz, the seeds of NDIS were born under Rudd. And credit for it really needs to go to Shorten anyway.

  249. Justin

    But yes, that was a particularly vindictive dig at Gillard from Rudd.

  250. Justin

    Having said that, Rudd’s praise of Gillard’s achievements have already been greater than hers of his back in 2010.

  251. Fran Barlow

    David:

    Insurgents hiding amongst civilians for protection has been a tactic since at least Viet Nam and I don’t think that wars can be fought with only the “guilty” getting killed.

    That’s true of course, which is an excellent reason for avoiding getting into shooting wars, particularly when you need to cross established jurisdictional frontiers, save where there is an absolutely compelling reason in human welfare and nothing else will serve. I’m not sure why you’re putting this point to me though.

    If the insurgents win, you know exactly what they will do to Afghan girls and women, so why do you support them just because they are “anti-U.S.”?

    You’re assuming what you may not — that

    a) I support them

    and

    b) I am supporting them because they are anti-US

    Neither is the case. Relatively recently in history, for example, I supported the NATO no-fly-zone over Libya, even though once could see the Libyan insurgents as “pro-US”. I would not have supported western ‘boots on the ground’.

    I am not a supporter of the Taliban, nor was I a supporter of the Northern Alliance. It is the case though that both the Afghan and US governments are now going to seek a peace with the Taliban precisely so the US can withdraw with minimal embarrassment. Suggesting that in some way, a speedy withdrawal by Australian troops would imply ‘support of the Taliban’ does seem perverse on these facts. The chief military power has declared its willingness for the Afghans, its clients, to seek an accommodation with them. The withdrawal or presence of the Australian troops can have made no difference to these facts. All that can happen is a prolongation of the occupation with the inevitable casualties, including amongst non-combatants and Australian troops.

    What might happen post-withdrawal is moot because withdrawal prior to a qualitative change in the facts on the ground was always a certainty. Once that became obvious — and I’d say that was obvious about a decade ago, the warrant for staying was lacking, if indeed there ever was a warrant for intervention — which IMO, there wasn’t.

    I hope that is clear.

  252. Katz

    Liz, that Facebook page appears to be the work of adolescent boys and girls. There isn’t a “progressive” to be found. But yes they do magnify and coarsen prevailing misogynistic attitudes.

    These days you don’t have to be marooned on a desert isle to live out “Lord of the Flies”. Cyberspace has created an opportunity for a infinite number of these sites. Disturbing.

  253. Liz

    I know Turnbull invested leather jackets, for the casual politician.

  254. faustusnotes

    Liz, I thought some of the rest of Summers’ article was quite insightful, and that part about Rudd stealing her stuff particularly. Aly mentioned it today too. In question time yesterday too he was very careful to elide any mention of who got all those policies through the parliament … slimy.

    Linda, I don’t care how many seminal books the old guard have written, it doesn’t give them the right to make unrealistic judgments about the behavior of the young women who have inherited their struggle. Especially when that struggle is happening in contexts – such as being Australia’s first female PM – that the old guard never had any experience with and aren’t in a position to judge their own behavior with respect to. They aren’t all-knowing just because of their historical contribution. Gillard, Plibersek, Roxon, Wong – they’re all in very unique positions in the history of women’s struggle and they are literally making this shit up as they go. For someone to judge their degree of solidarity from the armchair of old age is just mean – and to put it in the centre of a piece that should have been firmly about the oh so much more obvious misogyny of the meatheads in media and coalition circles is both a terrible distraction and a nasty piece of guilt by association.

  255. Liz

    I did mean ‘invented’, but invested works quite well.

  256. faustusnotes

    Didn’t Turnbull also invent the verb “to Grech”? Creative guy!

  257. silkworm

    Rudd once said that climate change was the most important moral challenge of our time. He would do well to reiterate that sentiment, and grab hold of the progressive vote. He should renew his commitment to developing the renewables industry.

    Some say he is likely to bring forward the ETS, and thus reduce the carbon price, and this has enraged the Greens. However, this could be spun in a positive manner. He could argue that an earlier participation in the global carbon market could give Australia more influence in the global community, and this could play into his renewed commitment to meeting the moral challenge of climate change.

    Rudd needs to reprove himself as a global moral visionary.

    I look forward to Rudd’s meeting with Obama, as Obama has indicated his commitment to the new industrial revolution, though perhaps not in those words. Perhaps it would do us all well to use this term – “new industrial revolution” – and give tribute to Gillard who began to use this term.

  258. Tim Macknay

    Having lived overseas for a couple of years I think that Australians do way overestimate how much people outside of Australia (excluding the expat community) care about what happens here. I was overseas during the early Howard years and saw only a couple of stories hit the mainstream news – one was about East Timor, the other was about a kangaroo that thought it was a dog.

    When I was in Europe last year the only Australian news stories that filtered through were shark attacks on the west coast.

  259. Fran Barlow

    For the record, I agree that it would have been an own goal for the women in cabinet to withdraw merely because R__d had been restored to power at the expense of Gillard after a trolling campaign which traded in part on misogynist hectoring of the PM.

    There are any number of ethical reasons for the women not to serve the current regime, including, perhaps, that R__d may be simply prove horrible to work for, but withdrawing in sisterly solidarity seems unwarranted — particularly as I suspect Ms Gillard would have sought to discourage them from doing so.

  260. alfred venison
  261. faustusnotes

    Tim, the Guardian has an aussie edition now. I’m increasingly thinking that very few other newspapers count as newspapers anymore.

  262. Luxxe

    Liz@246 – are you not aware that Julia Gillard very nastily left Kevin Rudd out of a list of prime ministers she read out at the 2010 Labor conference? Fair enough retort on Rudd’s part I would think.

  263. faustusnotes

    there was a labor conference in 2010?

  264. Luxxe

    Actually it was 2011. Which actually makes the snub much worse, being revenge served rather cold.

  265. alfred venison

    is that the best you can do? it was 2011 & like Luxxe said gillard left rudd out.

  266. faustusnotes

    she also didn’t mention Watson and Fisher, or herself. Hmmm …

  267. Linda

    faustusnotes @254 I simply pointed out that Summers’ actions are not necessarily, as you declared, unfeminist, and that she has written more than, as you said, one book. We agree that it would not have been a good idea for the rest of the female ministers to resign. However, I fail to see why her age has anything to do with this. Do you have a problem with older women speaking and sharing their wisdom and experience? It appears to me that you do, going by your constant referencing of “old feminists” “the old guard” “the arm chair of old age”.

  268. Liz

    It’s a bit of a worry that Rudd is playing the ‘many asylum seekers are economic refugees’ line.

  269. Chris

    she also didn’t mention Watson and Fisher, or herself. Hmmm …

    It would be a bit wierd if she started talking about how herself like that. Skipping the most recent ALP prime minister was a deliberate snub – though perhaps they felt Rudd deserved it and if he had left parliament in 2010 they probably would have lauded him like the other ALP PMs. It was pretty clear that post her taking over the role of PM that they deliberately did not push the achievements that Rudd made as PM – for pretty obvious reasons – they’d just kicked him out. In later years his role in the GFC was pretty much erased and attributed to Swan instead.

    As an interesting aside – there was an interview with the ex-treasury head who spoke really well of Rudd management during the GFC who was positive about how involved he was and the detail of the questions he had asked. They didn’t have a problem with answering them quickly because Treasury was prepared and had done much of the planning work ahead of time planning for that sort of economic situation.

  270. Chris

    It’s a bit of a worry that Rudd is playing the ‘many asylum seekers are economic refugees’ line.

    Yes, not a good sign at all :-(

  271. faustusnotes

    The offending text from 2011:

    The responsibilities of Government are the responsibilities of hard choice.

    Curtin knew that when he raised conscripts for military service overseas.

    Chifley knew that in the industrial winter of 1949.

    Whitlam knew it when he ended the bitter debate over state aid.

    Hawke and Keating knew it every day they governed.

    And we know it now.

    Note the use of “we.” She has clearly divided labour history into the most recent three previous eras, and uses “we” to discuss the present one. Had she talked about Rudd it would have been suggestive of the Rudd PM-ship as a previous era (interrupted by Liberal rule).

    This is just a speech-writing convention, not a snub.

  272. alfred venison

    This is just a speech-writing convention, not a snub. ha!!! baloney

  273. Jumpy

    It’s a bit of a worry that Rudd is playing the ‘many asylum seekers are economic refugees’ line.

    Yes, many of them are economic immigrants, not refugees.
    Not a good start.

  274. David

    Linda:

    Anne Summers was shaped by the 50s and 60s. People like Gillard and Roxon were shaped by the 70s and 80s. A different generation, a different culture, a different environment and different issues. It’s like listening to a knight in shining armour in the middle of a tank battle.

  275. Russell

    I have a bad memory, so maybe this has been discussed as a reason for Gillard’s ‘illegitimacy’ as PM and I’ve forgotten, but, apart from gender, would class have anything to do with it?

    There’s the voice, the background, the lack of presentational skills, the boyfriend …. I grew up with Menzies, Holt, Gorton, Whitlam, Fraser … Hawke was a larrikin, but a rhodes scholar, Keating was a spiv but aspirational in the Mahler and antique clocks sense ….

    I think many of us expect a PM, someone representing the country, should be at least middle class, speak well etc. Apart from her gender, Gillard didn’t fit the bill, class-wise, to be PM, yes?

  276. faustusnotes

    alfred venison, do you want to explain how the word “we” could not include Rudd? Given as how it’s a plural and all…

  277. Linda

    David @273 “Anne Summers was shaped by the 50s and 60s.”

    She was “shaped” by being a woman living in a misogynistic society, a society that she still lives in, as do we all.

  278. Linda

    Russell @ 274 “I think many of us expect a PM, someone representing the country, should be at least middle class, speak well etc.”

    She has often been derided or criticised for her voice. I think this had more to do with her not having a stereotypically feminine voice, than with any class-based prejudice. Abbott doesn’t sound too middle class either but I’ve never heard him criticised for it.

  279. Terangeree

    Rudd’s LNP challenger was interviewed this morning on ABC Brisbane Radio.

    Griffith electors, apparently, are concerned about secure borders.

    Of course. We Griffithites don’t want that riff-raff from Moreton, Lilley, Bonner or Brisbane surging across the border and creating mayhem in nice, peaceful Griffith. ;)

  280. David

    Linda: I was born in 1973. I wouldn’t want some dinosaur Baby Boomer who was born in 1945 like Summers trying to tell me they understood Generation X or Generation Y when the times they grew up in were vastly different. For example unlike Gillard or Roxon, Summers was a teenager during the age of poodle skirts, not ABBA or Duran Duran.

  281. Sam

    Griffith electors, apparently, are concerned about secure borders.

    Too late, I’m afraid. Borders folded a while ago due to competition from online books and other reasons.

  282. Peter Murphy

    Terangeree: but folk from Ryan are ok? (Cross fingers.)

  283. Sam

    She was “shaped” by being a woman living in a misogynistic society, a society that she still lives in, as do we all.

    When Summers was growing up and a young adult, women had to resign from many jobs when they got married, got paid far less as a matter of law for doing the same job in the same organisation as men, all abortions were the backyard or coathanger variety, the idea of a woman as PM was preposterous, and the culture was that they should be kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

    Things are not as they should be for women in 2013, but it aint 1963.

  284. Paul Norton

    On another point, I think that Gillard handled the situation of a hung parliament and the negotiations with the crossbench quite well on the whole, although with some blemishes, and certianly better than Rudd would have done had he found himself in those circumstances. The problem in this area lay with public perceptions and with how the exigencies of minority government were communicated to the wider public (again noting that the media were villains of this piece, as of many others). In particular I think that both Labor and the Greens needed to manage perceptions better than they did to dispel perceptions that either was in the pocket of the other.

  285. Peter Murphy

    I had a listen to the Glasson interview linked above by Terangeree. He seems like a nice guy, but I wish his minders would give him new talking points; the ones he have seem a bit stale. “Australia less productive than Botswana”, apparently.

  286. alfred venison

    ” alfred venison, do you want to explain how the word “we” could not include Rudd? Given as how it’s a plural and all… ”

    yes, faustusnotes @ 226, i can explain that.

    labor tried for years to topple howard. they tried with beazley. they tried crean. they even tried latham.

    but the labor leader who finally toppled howard, took labor out of a decade in opposition, and saved us all from the global financial crisis, is the only labor prime since world war two not mentioned by name in the speech.

    that’s a conspicuous & deliberate snub.

    that’s why the royal “we” – plural and all – is not good enough. -a.v.

  287. alfred venison

    …the only labor prime minister since world war two…

  288. faustusnotes

    Linda asks

    Do you have a problem with older women speaking and sharing their wisdom and experience?

    No I don’t. But I do have a problem with older people casting judgment on obviously line-ball calls, the circumstances of which they cannot know or take into account, about situations they have never been in, in contexts with which they are unfamiliar. I also have a big problem with older people setting rigid ideological conditions for political acceptance, especially when those conditions go against the principles they originally fought for. See e.g. Nickws’s idea that representatives of the working class cannot have a university education.

    Also, Summers wasn’t “sharing her knowledge and experience.” She was passing judgment, and in particular she was angry that the nine most talented women in modern politics didn’t resign en masse. For feminist reasons or something. If this is the benefit that accrues to young women from listening to older people’s knowledge and experience, I think those older people should keep it to themselves.

  289. akn

    I can’t believe the slagging of older people that’s going on here. What a joke! My elders, when I was young, we’re WWII vets from whom I learned a lot not least of which was the necessity of opposing war wherever possible. But hey, that experience is obviously redundant to the lives of gen whatevers! Should I also mention the depression? Don’t you young peoples read history? Apparently not.

    What a hoot.

  290. faustusnotes

    So alfred venison, you imagine that the “we” doesn’t include Rudd, even though there is nothing in the text to indicate this. Who do you think the “we” does include?

    No one’s slagging off older people here, akn.

  291. alfred venison

    faustusnotes

    you’re evading the point. again.

    curtin, by name
    chifley, by name
    whitlam, by name
    hawke, by name
    keating, by name

    and “we”

    are you kidding?

  292. faustusnotes

    Alfred, “we” when spoken by the leader of a political party is obviously not meant to refer to just prime ministers. It’s an attempt to be inclusive of all currently serving politicians – something that obviously can’t be done for previous eras, hence the naming of PMs from previous eras. Rudd’s PM-ship is not a previous era. Why do you think Gillard didn’t say “I know this”? Because she wasn’t talking about just herself.

    So please clarify who you think she was talking about!

  293. alfred venison

    baloney!

  294. Mindy

    AV and faustusnotes – can you agree to disagree?

  295. alfred venison

    yes, i’m prepared to. faustusnotes, who’s clutching at straws, obviously loves her/his champion as much as i love my champion. -a.v.

  296. akn

    fn: yes you are slagging whole generations. See. A direct contradiction. That probably will be unbearable for you but hold up!

    On Anne Summers: she’s a significant Aussie feminist who busted a few barriers and advanced the cause of gender equality which is the absolute bedrock of a decent democracy. All of what she says is worthy of consideration and respect.

    Liz: I daresay you are correct in your opinion that some men just can’t seem to hear a woman’s voice. And I also daresay that you are right to nominate the facebook page in support of Rudd as an example of the xort of crude anti-feminist mysoginy to which Gillard to subject. But I don’t believe in guilt by association. In other words, because I’m not a supporter of Gillard does not mean that I’m a madculinist fanboy of Rudd or that I can’t hear women.

    I won’t make the mistake of nominating my favourite feminists again, which I did once before to your scorn, in an attempt to prove to you that I, along with a host of men in my gneneration (a Jonerser) and younger, take feminism, or in my case women’s liberation, the two not being the same anymore, seriously.

    however. as proof that I can hear women I’ll suggest that you compare and contrast the media and politicval trewatment of Gillard with that of Joan Kirner who, as I’m sure you’re waware was the firsat female Premier of Victoria. I reckon she was a good leader, handed the poisoned chalice of leadership rpior to an absolute wipeout of the ALP in Vic, and managed well. She was well treated by the media and only ever suffered the nicname, ‘Mother Russia’, and she did that well.

    Gillard didn’t get anything like the same run.

    So, the interesting question is: why not? What’s changed?

    I don’t know the answer but I reckon there is room here for a fruitful discussion but only if we all reckon we’re on the same side.

  297. faustusnotes

    Yes, my bizarre insistence that plurals exist in the English language has obviously confounded this debate.

  298. alfred venison

    sorry. that should be “faustusnotes, who i believe is clutching at straws” &c.

    would be more sincerely conciliatory in tone. -alfred venison

  299. akn

    Dear god! I hope that everyone appreciates the spelling and syntax above. What can I say? It’s raining in Drastic, the wine is excellent, the firebox is pumping, the dogs snoring, the horses fed.

  300. GregM

    David@280 what are poodle skirts?

  301. Luxxe

    It would be interesting to know whether, on reflection, Anne Summers stands by her comment. She should retract. If she doesn’t reconsider and retract, she will never, in future years, be in a position to praise any further achievements, as ministers and parl secs, by Tanya Plibersek, Penny Wong, Kate Ellis, Kate Lundy, Justine Elliott, Jenny Macklin, Jacinta Collins, Julie Collins, Catherine King or Jan McLucas … what a sad position for a feminist commentator to put herself in.

  302. Chris

    Yes, my bizarre insistence that plurals exist in the English language has obviously confounded this debate.

    Well I’m sure that those that are concerned that Gillard’s achievements are being erased from history will be very happy to learn that whenever Rudd uses “we” to describe what the ALP has achieved that everyone realises he is crediting Gillard. And that in no way is he attempting to take credit for the work she did.

    Gillard didn’t get anything like the same run.

    So, the interesting question is: why not? What’s changed?

    The internet – or more precisely the ease at which anyone can be a “reporter”. Not only do the loons get a lot more coverage, but mainstream reporters need to compete against them. And extreme viewpoints whether they be fair or not attract eyeballs. At the same time the MSM get criticised for being slow in reporting breaking news and on the other hand get criticised for not doing enough checking when they do start reporting things as soon as they hear them.

  303. Terangeree

    Poodle Skirts were worn on the set of Happy Days.

  304. Russell

    “Gillard didn’t get anything like the same run.

    So, the interesting question is: why not? What’s changed? ”

    The first woman to be premier was Carmen Lawrence and she took over when Dowding was deposed. Apart from being middle-class and well spoken, she, and I guess Kirner too, didn’t have forces in their own party constantly leaking damaging stuff about them.

  305. Megan

    I don’t believe Kevin Rudd is going to name a date right away. He’s just going to keep on messing with Tony Abbott’s head, dangling it before him and saying maddening things like ‘in accordance with the Constitution – have you read it? It’s a great document…’ Nah, he’s going to stretch this out as long as he can so as to extract maximum blood out of Abbott and co’s policy-free zone. And he’s at it already, saying provoking things like Konfrontasi and telling the public horror stories of how Abbott will mismanage the economy by cutting costs. All true of course. Conservatives never know how to manage money. Great stuff!

    Columnists like David Marr make much of how dysfunctional he was and how much he had alienated staff and colleagues when he was deposed in 2010, but I’m surprised there is no commentary taking into account just how physically ill Rudd was at that time. He had serious heart trouble requiring an operation and gallstones. He really must have been under par at best and at worst in absolute agony.

  306. mindy

    Not sure illness is a complete explanation for the micromanagement. Rudd is going to have to come up with something concrete on either single parents, asylum seekers or equal marriage soon, otherwise the polls will dip again and any advantage gone. There are many of the faithful wanting and waiting to believe again, he needs to give them something.

  307. akn

    Chris and Russel above: I’m listening.

    Mindy: also above. One hopes.

  308. alfred venison

    thank you Chris, reductio ad absurdum, succinct & classy. i think you are right about the internet. the internet is the biggest thing that’s happened to humanity since the printing press. its affecting everything in ways we often barely perceive. -a.v.

  309. Chris

    Mindy @ 306 – I’m not optimistic on refugees, but if I heard the radio correctly this evening then I believe he has offered a referendum on same-sex marriage. Which at least some lobby groups have said they don’t want because they fear a fear campaign.

    Though given the quite significant public support for same sex marriage I think a referrendum is a very reasonable approach to take because I don’t think the ALP will force a party vote on the issue and it may be a while before the numbers are big enough in the LNP to force their leader to allow a conscience vote.

    av @ 308 – the other issue with the internet now is that it is very easy to mostly only listen to views that you agree with and so get stuck in the trap of thinking that your views are centrist, reasonable views.

    Old usenet readers which were able to learn what type of posts you liked and hide the ones you didn’t recognized this problem and there was the ability to get it to deliberately inject a certain percentage of content that it thought you wouldn’t like. To help make sure you weren’t exposed to an increasingly narrow viewpoint. Today it would be kind of like having a guest post by someone from Catallaxy on LP and vice-versa once a week :-)

  310. Megan

    @Mindy 306 – Admittedly staff did complain about Kevin Rudd’s micro-managing when he was a bureaucrat in the Qld State Government. But plenty of people in power are micro-managers and they can be very effective leaders, for instance the Duke of Wellington. It’s interesting that people like Anthony Albanese never seemed to have a problem with him. Maybe part of the explanation for his dumping in 2010 was his soldiering on and refusal to delegate at a time when he really – physically and mentally – did need to take a step back.

  311. faustusnotes

    yes mindy, because if the faithful weren’t satisfied with NDIS, Gonski and the CPRS, they’re going to be satisfied by Rudd’s first brainfart, right? And it turns out to be … a tougher test for boat people.

    That should keep the faithful on side where a functioning education, environment and disability policy couldn’t.

  312. Shingle

    Liz@19 this snippet of history might partly explain Rudd’s apparent coolness towards the Greens:

    ‘The Queensland (Greens) party, one of the strongest state branches, experienced a stagnation in support after effectively delivering a National-Liberal state government through preference decisions in 1996. It was a move justified by leader Drew Hutton as electoral power-broking in exchange for policy outcomes, in an era where major party convergence made either side equally open to such offers.’

    From http://overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-199/feature-tad-tietze/

    After enduring endless National rule (since late 50s)and then a brief few years of the Goss govt, I can remember myself thinking … What the! I was pretty crapped off. Whilst the Greens a point to make, that they would preference the conservatives seemed a travesty in the context of Qld state political history. I since forgave and went on to sometimes vote Green, but I can understand why anyone who was part of that Govt might retain some misgivings.

  313. Shingle

    Sorry that should have been Liz @219

  314. Russell

    Megan – this was the guy that refused to even meet with some ministers, like, they couldn’t even make an appointment to see him!

    As I said earlier, out of 100 MPs the best the ALP has to offer us as PM, is, according to them, a proven failure as a leader of a cabinet government.

  315. Russell

    Won’t the campaign launch be something? Usually the leader is greeted by a wildly cheering, admiring crowd. People reach out to shake the hand of the leader; this time they’ll have to abjectly crawl on the hands and knees, because this time it will be the traitor, Kevin. Despised, but begged to help them save their seats.

    Should be the biggest pageant of political cynicism ever seen in Australia.

  316. Fran Barlow

    Chris:

    Today it would be kind of like having a guest post by someone from Catallaxy on LP and vice-versa once a week

    I’ve never been a fan of homeopathy. ;-)

    More seriously, I don’t agree that reading tosh is good for you, any more than that you should eat worthless or worse food products as a corrective to good diet.

    I am very much the better for avoiding Kelly and Grattan and that Adam fellow on their ABC’s 702 show and Catallaxy or the Alan Jones show.

    I do go to William Bowe’s ‘pollbludger’ where there are indeed a few foolish and offensive folk, but that’s not why I go there.

  317. Paul Norton

    A horrible thought has occurred to me. What if all the characters in Viz magazine actually exist and are the regular posters and commentators at Catallaxy?

  318. Terangeree

    Peter Murphy @ 282

    Griffith’s border with Ryan is aquatic.

  319. jules

    Paul @ 317 – wouldn’t that actually increase the collective IQ of Catallaxy?

  320. Fran Barlow

    Chris@309

    Agree on SSM …

    While I do favour the ALP seeking to make it a binding matter for all their MPs to support it in parliament, if the status quo — conscience votes on both sides — persists — I’d favour a referendum. I doubt that it would fail because while the LNP wouldn’t want to endorse it they’d have to run dead on the issue to avoid being wedged. If the LNP win, we won’t see one anyway — for that very reason — but the ALP should poress for one, because that will still wedge the LNP and keep the issue as a running sore for them, shoring up their own ranks as well.

  321. Lefty E

    This says it all: it takes Rudd to finally explain to anyone what the hell Gonski actually does. Hello?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/28/kevin-rudd-press-conference-prime-minister

  322. Russell

    Yes, he does what Garrett and Gillard couldn’t manage – to get the message across. But he’s also being dishonest to say that it is Gonski that will give principals more autonomy, and have schools make school plans – that’s being going on for years.

  323. tigtog

    Since speculation about portfolios seems to have ended on this thread ages ago and we’re up over 300 comments, it’s time to close it so that the more general speculation can move to the weekly election2103 roundtable.